Harvard: Unvaccinated Children Pose Zero Risk

Harvard Immunologist says unvaccinated children pose no risk to vaccinated children

A Harvard immunologist has written an open letter explaining why unvaccinated children pose no risk to their vaccinated counterparts. 

Vaxxter.com reports:

Dear Legislator:

My name is Tetyana Obukhanych.  I hold a PhD in Immunology.  I am writing this letter in the hope that it will correct several common misperceptions about vaccines in order to help you formulate a fair and balanced understanding that is supported by accepted vaccine theory and new scientific findings.

Do unvaccinated children pose a higher threat to the public than the vaccinated?

It is often stated that those who choose not to vaccinate their children for reasons of conscience endanger the rest of the public, and this is the rationale behind most of the legislation to end vaccine exemptions currently being considered by federal and state legislators country-wide.  You should be aware that the nature of protection afforded by many modern vaccines – and that includes most of the vaccines recommended by the CDC for children – is not consistent with such a statement.  I have outlined below the recommended vaccines that cannot prevent transmission of disease either because they are not designed to prevent the transmission of infection (rather, they are intended to prevent disease symptoms), or because they are for non-communicable diseases.  People who have not received the vaccines mentioned below pose no higher threat to the general public than those who have, implying that discrimination against non-immunized children in a public school setting may not be warranted.

  1. IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus. Wild poliovirus has been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces.  Please note that wild poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine, OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine.  Despite being capable of preventing wild poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.
  2. Tetanus is not a contagious disease, but rather acquired from deep-puncture wounds contaminated with C. tetani spores. Vaccinating for tetanus (via the DTaP combination vaccine) cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is intended to render personal protection only.
  3. While intended to prevent the disease-causing effects of the diphtheria toxin, the diphtheria toxoid vaccine (also contained in the DTaP vaccine) is not designed to prevent colonization and transmission of C. diphtheriae. Vaccinating for diphtheria cannot alter the safety of public spaces; it is likewise intended for personal protection only.
  4. The acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine (the final element of the DTaP combined vaccine), now in use in the USA, replaced the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the late 1990s, which was followed by an unprecedented resurgence of whooping cough. An experiment with deliberate pertussis infection in primates revealed that the aP vaccine is not capable of preventing colonization and transmission of B. pertussis. The FDA has issued a warning regarding this crucial finding.[1]
    Furthermore, the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.
  5. Among numerous types of H. influenzae, the Hib vaccine covers only type b. Despite its sole intention to reduce symptomatic and asymptomatic (disease-less) Hib carriage, the introduction of the Hib vaccine has inadvertently shifted strain dominance towards other types of H. influenzae (types a through f).These types have been causing invasive disease of high severity and increasing incidence in adults in the era of Hib vaccination of children.  The general population is more vulnerable to the invasive disease now than it was prior to the start of the Hib vaccination campaign.  Discriminating against children who are not vaccinated for Hib does not make any scientific sense in the era of non-type b H. influenzae disease.
  6. Hepatitis B is a blood-borne virus. It does not spread in a community setting, especially among children who are unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors, such as needle sharing or sex. Vaccinating children for hepatitis B cannot significantly alter the safety of public spaces.  Further, school admission is not prohibited for children who are chronic hepatitis B carriers.  To prohibit school admission for those who are simply unvaccinated – and do not even carry hepatitis B – would constitute unreasonable and illogical discrimination.

In summary, a person who is not vaccinated with IPV, DTaP, HepB, and Hib vaccines due to reasons of conscience poses no extra danger to the public than a person who is.  No discrimination is warranted.

How often do serious vaccine adverse events happen?

It is often stated that vaccination rarely leads to serious adverse events.  Unfortunately, this statement is not supported by science.  A recent study done in Ontario, Canada, established that vaccination actually leads to an emergency room visit for 1 in 168 children following their 12-month vaccination appointment and for 1 in 730 children following their 18-month vaccination appointment.

When the risk of an adverse event requiring an ER visit after well-baby vaccinations is demonstrably so high, vaccination must remain a choice for parents, who may understandably be unwilling to assume this immediate risk in order to protect their children from diseases that are generally considered mild or that their children may never be exposed to.

Can discrimination against families who oppose vaccines for reasons of conscience prevent future disease outbreaks of communicable viral diseases, such as measles?

Measles research scientists have for a long time been aware of the “measles paradox.” I quote from the article by Poland & Jacobson (1994) “Failure to Reach the Goal of Measles Elimination: Apparent Paradox of Measles Infections in Immunized Persons.” Arch Intern Med 154:1815-1820:

“The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons.”[2]

Further research determined that behind the “measles paradox” is a fraction of the population called low vaccine responders.  Low-responders are those who respond poorly to the first dose of the measles vaccine.  These individuals then mount a weak immune response to subsequent RE-vaccination and quickly return to the pool of “susceptibles’’ within 2-5 years, despite being fully vaccinated.[3]

Re-vaccination cannot correct low-responsiveness: it appears to be an immuno-genetic trait.[4]  The proportion of low-responders among children was estimated to be 4.7% in the USA.[5]

Studies of measles outbreaks in Quebec, Canada, and China attest that outbreaks of measles still happen, even when vaccination compliance is in the highest bracket (95-97% or even 99%). This is because even in high vaccine responders, vaccine-induced antibodies wane over time.  Vaccine immunity does not equal life-long immunity acquired after natural exposure.

It has been documented that vaccinated persons who develop breakthrough measles are contagious.  In fact, two major measles outbreaks in 2011 (in Quebec, Canada, and in New York, NY) were re-imported by previously vaccinated individuals.[6][7]

Taken together, these data make it apparent that elimination of vaccine exemptions, currently only utilized by a small percentage of families anyway, will neither solve the problem of disease resurgence nor prevent re-importation and outbreaks of previously eliminated diseases.

Is discrimination against conscientious vaccine objectors the only practical solution?

The majority of measles cases in recent US outbreaks (including the recent Disneyland outbreak) are adults and very young babies, whereas in the pre-vaccination era, measles occurred mainly between the ages 1 and 15.  Natural exposure to measles was followed by lifelong immunity from re-infection, whereas vaccine immunity wanes over time, leaving adults unprotected by their childhood shots.  Measles is more dangerous for infants and for adults than for school-aged children.

Despite high chances of exposure in the pre-vaccination era, measles practically never happened in babies much younger than one year of age due to the robust maternal immunity transfer mechanism.  The vulnerability of very young babies to measles today is the direct outcome of the prolonged mass vaccination campaign of the past, during which their mothers, themselves vaccinated in their childhood, were not able to experience measles naturally at a safe school age and establish the lifelong immunity that would also be transferred to their babies and protect them from measles for the first year of life.

Luckily, a therapeutic backup exists to mimic now-eroded maternal immunity.  Infants as well as other vulnerable or immunocompromised individuals, are eligible to receive immunoglobulin, a potentially life-saving measure that supplies antibodies directed against the virus to prevent or ameliorate disease upon exposure.

In summary: 1) due to the properties of modern vaccines, non-vaccinated individuals pose no greater risk of transmission of polio, diphtheria, pertussis, and numerous non-type b H. influenzae strains than vaccinated individuals do, non-vaccinated individuals pose virtually no danger of transmission of hepatitis B in a school setting, and tetanus is not transmissible at all; 2) there is a significantly elevated risk of emergency room visits after childhood vaccination appointments attesting that vaccination is  not risk-free; 3) outbreaks of measles cannot be entirely prevented even if we had nearly perfect vaccination compliance; and 4) an effective method of preventing measles and other viral diseases in vaccine-ineligible infants and the immunocompromised, immunoglobulin, is available for those who may be exposed to these diseases.

Taken together, these four facts make it clear that discrimination in a public school setting against children who are not vaccinated for reasons of conscience is completely unwarranted as the vaccine status of conscientious objectors poses no undue public health risk.

Sincerely Yours,

~ Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD

  • John C Carleton

    Is she fired yet? She has violated Zionist Harvard Theology. She told the truth, that is not allowed by the Zionist USA, and Harvard is a tool of the zionist.

    • Frank C

      Good question!!!
      Sad, isn’t it?!

    • Frank C

      Good question!

    • Ralf Yuri

      Harvard is a
      satanic organization, but satan’s control is never total even in
      these organizations, God always places some of his sons even there, placed Joseph and Moses on Egypt.

      • Chuck Reed

        You and John should marry and have non vaccinated offspring.

        • Ralf Yuri

          He’s dating your mother.

      • Mike Stevens

        Irrelevant. She has no affiliations with Harvard, and is hijacking the name to make people think she has some valid experience and association with proper scientists.

        • Renè

          Just like you pretend to be in the Royal College of Physicians?

          • Mike Stevens

            So you admit she is pretending? That’s a start.

          • Renè
          • Mike Stevens

            That’s a photoshop. You are a despicable liar.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Then you should have no trouble quoting-and-linking to this comment of Mike’s, Mx. Escobar314.

            If he’s since edited, use the wayback machine.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I guess nobody caught Rene’s original text to his post…which he edited out later! https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/facbb53b9fd978d7d0531cd5fbc3a8d4414a72cc2e0b3e26f392755aa7f8897e.png

            Notice how the time matches and in the bottom left you can see the same message url? Even this my screenshot is also a forgery. It’s clearly a much better job than Rene’s poor attempt.

          • Miκe Stevens

            So you have better software than me.

            I tried to get Adobe, but I was out of space on my hard drive.

            Which font did you use? Microsoft?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            “So you have better software than me.”

            Or better wetware.

          • Realiτy022

            Big words for a DerpTurtle.

            Find out what “elemental” means yet?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Good question. Have you?

            Hint: Google ‘Socrates’.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Yeah, 2 months on, and you still can’t link to this.

        • VikingAPRNCNP

          She is a failed phd. She earned the credential but was unable to get on a tenure track position.

          • ciaparker2

            Who would want to in that criminal racket?

        • AutismDadd

          Just like you Mike / Brian

          • 655321

            He’s dusted off the mike profile again.

          • AutismDadd

            What’s the deal with the squabbling between Mike and Pro-Shill Reality 022? Seems these nasty people can’t even tolerate each other. Must be those call centers have them sitting too close together.

          • 655321

            Maybe its choreographed like pro wrestling, maybe they’re trying to give it the look of legitimacy.

          • AutismDadd

            I hope its real and just like Nazi Germany they will be brought to their knees.

          • 655321

            Was making a fool out of WLU/simba, he locked the thread.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea. I get blocked, banned and told they’re done with my bullshit when I question their blah blah…

          • Aluminati

            WLU? From sciencebasedmedicine???

            That ignorant moderator?? I think he’s the same person as the Skeptical Raptor moderator.

            I always get banned from that website. They can’t tolerate any truth there.

          • AutismDadd

            Its tied to their paycheck.

          • 655321

            Hilarious though, certain WLU, Chris, and simba are all the same fraud. These people must have multiple accounts, keeps the costs down for their employers.

          • AutismDadd

            Too bad they can’t get lives.

          • 655321

            It’s all the same dude/gal.

          • Mark

            Locked the thread?

            You were banned?

          • 655321

            Whichever. A little too close to the truth apparently.

          • 655321

            Cautiously optimistic on that, these fools are human too, or are they?

          • AutismDadd

            Careful you may give them some credit

          • 655321

            Ha, yeah, I strongly suspect any contention between those 2 frauds is contrived.

          • AutismDadd

            What they do in the bedroom is their business

          • ciaparker2

            I think it’s real. The beta wolves struggling to kill the alpha and move into his spot.

          • AutismDadd

            Dog eat dog…makes sense

      • JGC

        You’re speaking almost as if the supernatural entity commonly referred to as “Satan” were known to actually exist. Whatever for?

        • Ralf Yuri

          If satan did not exist, you would not be condemned to death.

          • JGC

            I’m not condemned to death.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            So what is your evidence that:

            a)JGC is condemned to death

            and

            b)Satan is a necessary cause of JGC being condemned to death?

            Evidence, mind, not scripture.

    • nbgiant25

      She’s not affiliated with Harvard, and it’s a gross mischaracterization to call her a “Harvard immunologist”. Per her own website, she held a postdoc position with a lab that had Harvard affiliations. We’re talking several steps of separation.

      She’s not an authority in any way, which is why the need to lie (or at least imply a non-existent connection) about her credentials.

      Most people aren’t even concerned with this particular issue. The issue is the risk posed to those who are unable to vaccinate. They are at higher risk, not those who can vaccinate.

      • John C Carleton

        That explains the truth.

      • Al metzger

        Maybe you need to really read it this time. Lol!!

      • Vapur Rupy

        Apparently you didn’t read the article, but instead jumped first into attacking the character of the speaker.

        According to her research (which we can all investigate), many of those who’ve been vaccinated are in fact at a higher risk. That either means she’s wrong, or you’re wrong. I understand the need to defend a confirmation bias since I do it too; so, take a closer look at her sources, rather than being offended at the contradiction of oft-repeated hyperbole which tries to encourage compliance.

        • nbgiant25

          I read the article, and I’d love to review her “research”, but she doesn’t have any. She’s done an underwhelming, cherry-picked literature review to attempt to make an argument that actual research doesn’t support.

          Once there is peer-reviewed, primary research that has any bearing on the subject, I’d be glad to discuss. That there isn’t is exactly why the false appeal to authority is being employed by misrepresenting this person as being affiliated with Harvard. If there were compelling research available, her actual credentials would suffice. Instead, people see Harvard and are immediately more receptive to the information given, regardless of its veracity.

          • richardruscoe

            Al already said it. nbgiant25 those little blue numbers mean a lot.

          • Anne

            Thank you for saying that. Good grief!!

          • DanWontHelp

            You are trying to walk into a cult and show them reason. It’s not going to work.

            The references look like supporting materials to people who just want to agree with the article. Expecting them to be critical of this article is as wise as expecting a Christian to be critical of Jesus. They’ll ignore the fact that the majority of those ER visits were for side effects the parents were already warned about, requiring no medical attention. And that the second highest cause is for injection site infections​ related to a needle stick, treated with Neosporin and​ a bandaid.

            They’ll ignore that the numbers of unimmunized people stack nicely on top of low responders.

            All they hear is that (one of) the vaccines mentioned increases your risk (by a purposefully undisclosed amount) of contracting (a strain of) pertussis.

          • AutismDadd

            Or a doctor with a license to lose would criticize vaccines.

        • m. n.

          The credentials and honesty of the speaker seem quite important when discussing an issue.

        • JGC

          I looked at her research–she has 8 indesed publication in PubMed. None of them even address the subject of the relative risk of infection posed by non-vaccinated versus vaccinated children.

        • Jaq

          It’s an open letter, not a study- the author has no published research on this subject. If you confuse open letters for research regularly, I imagine you must have a lovely collection of tinfoil hats.

      • AutismDadd

        Why can’t they be vaccinated? Oh yea it would harm them…

    • Chuck Reed

      Get a grip.

    • m. n.

      you are not adding to the cause of decency honesty or education by exposing your antisemitic racist view.

    • ciaparker2

      Anti-Semitism is despicable.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

      Thank heavens for the rest of the world, right?

      • John C Carleton

        Nope, zionist lie, everywhere they are.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

          Then why did you say “The Zionist USA?” but it works either way.

    • Jonathan Graham

      Apparently I live in such a civilized part of the world that I have a hard time believing you and your twenty-one upvoters are real people.

      • John C Carleton

        Occupied Palestine is NOT civilized.

        • Jonathan Graham

          Civilized or not, I don’t live there so it’s irrelevant.

    • FallsAngel

      Another anti-Semite, this one with 21 followers.

  • mary

    these vaccines are given to children to keep them sick for the rest of their lives keeping the monsters in the Harmaceuticals in pocket for ever

  • Ralf Yuri

    Whoever
    vaccinates a child is denying God, he is saying that he needs a Masonic
    industry to correct the human organism which is a project of God.

    • nmcard

      You mean needs a Masonic evil industry to GENETICALLY MODIFY our pure innocent children.

      • Renè

        GTFO conspiratard.

    • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

      You mean “to correct the human organism which is a project of God” and is very often born with poor eyesight requiring corrective lenses?

      What are you? A Scientologist?
      Are all folks who wear glasses or contacts or have laser surgery “denying God”?

      Readers:
      Behold the delusions of the anti-vaccinationists.
      Don’t you want to be associated with this type of incisive and rational thinking? /sarc
      If so, throw away your glasses and filled/capped teeth and figure out how to get rid of all those body piercings and tattoos.

    • Cardinal Fang

      Which god? I’d be prepared to bet that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is probably pro-vaccine (or would be if he was sober enough). I don’t know about the vaccination views of Ganesh or the Invisible Pink Unicorn I’m afraid

      • Ralf Yuri

        Masonic industry loves cattle like you.

      • Well_Actualy

        R’Amen brother

  • Heather Lohbeck Foster

    It’s nice to read comments that involve common sense. people actually have the nerve to say
    ‘well don’t you give any vaccines?’
    It’s sad how brainwashed the populist is….

    • Chani Leahong

      I contracted whooping cough FROM the vaccination when I was very young. Then my Mum caught it from me, and the illness was very bad, affecting her health drastically at the time she had a miscarriage with what might have become my younger sibling. I appreciate this is anecdotal, but it is real and I know several other people who caught whooping cough from the vaccine. So please be aware vaccines do carry significants risks.

  • Tim Goodsell

    No greater risk, except to those who can’t be vaccinated. Tell it to a woman whose newborn has died of whooping cough

    • Reg

      “The acellular pertussis (aP) vaccine (the final element of the DTaP combined vaccine), now in use in the USA, replaced the whole cell pertussis vaccine in the late 1990s, which was followed by an unprecedented resurgence of whooping cough. An experiment with deliberate pertussis infection in primates revealed that the aP vaccine is not capable of preventing colonization and transmission of B. pertussis. The FDA has issued a warning regarding this crucial finding.[1]
      Furthermore, the 2013 meeting of the Board of Scientific Counselors at the CDC revealed additional alarming data that pertussis variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.”

      • FallsAngel

        Warning my derriere! That research was performed on baboons, which are smarter than many anti-vaxers. It was a grand total of two baboons who got pertussis after being vaccinated and infected one other baboon each. It is also not known if this carries over to humans.
        http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2014/05/05/making-sense-out-of-the-baboon-pertussis-study/

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        Link to those please?

        • Reg

          Deep Turtle, It’s in this article above. #4 in her listed reasons for saying unvaccinated cistern are of no danger to those who are vaccinated. You can follow her link to service if it’s legitimate.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Thank you, Reg.

    • Madame Secret

      can’t be vaccinated….you don’t know how to read? too bad you need to learn about shedding and how vaccines actually pass on their deadly product to YOUR KIDS. think of everyone.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        Okay, Madame Secret.

        I’ve read about shedding and I have a question.

        There are people who talk about shedding as if vaccines cause disease rather than occasional fail. The latter problem, anyone the least bit educated in logic already knows – see The Nirvana Fallacy.

        Now, then, there are two major problems with this claim. However, it’s possible that there is information I have not adequately accounted for so…two questions:

        1)How come diseases happened before vaccines?
        2)How come we don’t see a positive correlation or even no correlation at all but rather an inverse correlation?

    • richardruscoe

      There was good information on this problem as well. The blue 2, I think.

    • Chani Leahong

      Tell it to my Mum who lost a baby because I contracted whooping cough FROM the vaccination when I was very young. My Mum then caught it from me, and the illness was very bad, affecting her health drastically and she had a miscarriage at that time with what might have become my younger sibling. I appreciate this is anecdotal, but it is real and I know several other people who caught whooping cough from the vaccine. So please be aware vaccines do carry significants risks.

      • Anne

        I cannot up your statement because it is just too sad but thank you for speaking up.

        • FallsAngel

          I’m sorry for her family’s loss, but it was not the vaccine. It is not possible to get whooping cough from the vaccine.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            And even if we grant the zombie-hypothesis arguendo…someone who cannot handle a dead pathogen certainly cannot handle the full, virulent version.

        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

          That and it’s plain wrong.

      • Gerie

        VERY significant risks. So many trolls on this feed it is just appalling. To question the need for SO many vaccinations, especially given in trivalent form, over 60 individual injections given before age 10, to say ‘let’s have an objective discussion about the actual need for them (as this immunologist is doing).. IS science; and to accept blindly what the CDC/Vaccine unit folks say is NOT science They are so totally in the pay of the vaccine industry; once anyone really starts to study in depth what’s going on, it’s very difficult not to speak up, to tell truth as we see it. This is NOT cult; this is questioning why on Earth we are accepting so blindly the mandate to inject tiny newborns, infants, children, adults, ALL of us with known toxins… mercury and aluminum (both of which are still in the flu vaccine) and other toxic substances. The vaccine industry answers to NO one; they cannot be sued, even though billions are paid out through vaccine courts for brain injuries from vaccines; but THEY (vaccine producers) pay none of that. It is criminal. Much very, very scientific data, discussions with many highly credentialed professionals, including researchers, pediatricians, osteopaths, regular MDs, people who HAVE been researching, in depth, all this for years discuss their concerns in the 7-part Docu-Series, “The Truth About Vaccines.” I cannot recommend it highly enough.

      • GaylePutt

        And there are probably millions more who did not experience the risks. There are always risks. The world is not a nice, safe place even though we all seem to believe it is. Shit happens. I’m sorry, Chani, for your sad experience but I am a firm believer that more people benefit from vaccinations than are negatively affected by them.

      • Mike Stevens

        You cannot contract whooping cough from the pertussis vaccine. Why do you possibly think that?
        It isn’t a live vaccine – it doesn’t even contain the pertussis bacteria.

        But at least you accept how lethal the disease can be, that’s something I suppose.

        • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

          Lying liars tell lies which sometimes inadvertently reveal a piece of the truth.

          Next Chani will be telling us she replaced her car engine with a new engine by merely opening the hood (bonnet to you) and tossing a set of new pistons into the empty engine bay and the new working engine magically reconstituted itself from just those few parts

          Readers may once again ask:
          Why do anti-vaccinationists constantly lie?

          • Renè

            Why does Paul Offit constantly lie?

            Or do you really think that “aluminum supports a healthy fetus”?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Can you show us where Paul Offit said that? Mind, I expect you to quote Paul Offit, in context, and not what someone says he said or what he said, devoid of context.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        No, you don’t. You know several people who believe that they got whooping cough from a dead bacterium or a not-even-whole dead bacterium, depending on age.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        Please pass a message on to your mum. “Mum, I am really sorry that you miscarried my younger sibling. I do understand that it was painful. [insert other expressions of sympathy as you find appropriate]. However, zombies did not cause you to miscarry.”

    • sabelmouse

      probs got through a vaccinated person in an attempt to cocoon.

      • FallsAngel

        Always blaming parents, aren’t you sabel?

      • Mike Stevens

        Sabel, please don’t tell us that after all your years of “research” on vaccines, that you claim DTaP vaccine can give someone pertussis?

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        That’s like saying I can run someone over with a small collection of car parts.

    • 655321

      Stuff it. Tell it to a mom who lost her kid to a vaccine.

      • Mike Stevens

        I will when I find one, but in 30 years of medical practice I have yet to come across one.

        • 655321

          Dusting off the Mike profile?

          • Miκe Stevens

            I was lying. They just pay me to say that.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        As long as you tell it to the mums who lost a kid to diseases, using the same standards you use for vaccine death.

        • 655321

          Tell it to the millions of neurologically vaccine damaged children while you’re at it.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            As soon as you demonstrate the causative link, sure.

          • 655321

            Aw silly DT, there is no debate about the link, the only debate is the frequency of occurrence.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            All the more reason you should find it easy to provide evidence.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            As long as you do the same to those neurologically disease damaged children using the same standards you use for vaccine neurologically damaged children. Deal?

        • AutismDadd

          Where in the world are these children? Oh yea Africa, a place used to experiment on malnourished children while NOT feeding them.

    • AutismDadd

      And who came to visit, a recently vaccinated cousin? Or did Mom take the baby to Wal Mart and McDonalds?

  • Cm
    • Madame Secret

      see a blog written by a former pharma employee? yeah…NO.

      • nbgiant25

        Look at her own website. She “held postdoctoral research training appointments in prominent immunology laboratories affiliated with Harvard Medical School and Stanford University School of Medicine.”

        She never worked for Harvard, did not receive credentials from Harvard, and didn’t even have an actual postdoc with Harvard.

        I bet she watched Good Will Hunting, though. I guess that counts.

        • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

          So she attended a remote lab affiliated with Harvard for more schooling/training and the anti-vaccine cultists claim that makes her associated with Harvard?

          That would be like me attending a continuing education course held at some remote office bldg affiliated with MIT and then I claim I’m an MIT scientist.

          Nice scam if you can find people dumb and gullible enough to buy it.
          Oh wait! We’re talking about anti-vaccinationists here…

          • Miκe Stevens

            Yeah. Tell me about it!

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Hi, Rene.
            Showing just how honest and deranged anti-vaxxers are by impersonating your pro-vax enemy Mike Stevens in an attempt to make him look bad?
            Thanks for the demonstration of how sleazy the anti-vaxxers are.

            Flagged and reported.

            Note to readers: To check if a post was really made by Mike and not by the anti-vaccine mental case known as Rene just point your cursor at the poster’s avatar and a quick look at that poster’s stats will pop up. Mike has ~23400 posts. Rene has ~1560 posts.

            Rene has finally lost the last marble in his coffee can.
            The anti-vaccine cult must be so proud to count him as one of their own.

          • Miκe Stevens
          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Hi, Rene.
            Off your meds again and trolling your “enemies” by impersonating them?
            How very sane of you. You show the anti-vaccine cult in just the right light for my taste.

            Dance monkey!
            Dance!

            Flagged and Reported.

          • Realiτy022

            LOL!!!

            You’re the psycho buddy, with all your woospeak and conspirababble!!!666!!!

            Read something about how safe vaccines were on the internetz!!! From Paul Offit??

            I think you have too much aluminum in the brainz!!!

            Chronic Aluminum Intake Causes Alzheimer’s Disease: Applying Sir Austin Bradford Hill’s Causality Criteria

          • Mike Stevens

            Pity you can only report idiots once on disqus….

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Other differences:

            Mi[letter K]e Stevens has a public profile and has the disqus I.D. of Escobar314
            Mi(kappa)e Stevens has a private profile and the disqus I.D. of @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Check those I.D.s, sia.
            I think you have swapped them.
            Rene’s ID is @Escobar314 and his profile is private and he is using the kappa for a k to get around duplicating Mikes real user name.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Yes, I have swapped them.

            Will fix.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Thank you for the correction, @reality022:disqus. Fixed, I hope?

          • Realiτy022

            No problem DerpTurtle!!

          • shay simmons

            Mi(Kappa) Stevens also has the IQ of a newt.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Not easy to check on disqus though.

          • poppy72

            I to have flagged you for impersonation.

          • Erin Oakley

            And I have you fagged for infornication.

    • 655321

      skepticalraptor? Is that a joke?

      • AutismDadd

        Buh Wah Ha Ha it is to me…

      • AutismDadd

        Sure is, the biggest joke on the internet.

    • AutismDadd

      skepticalraptor is Pharma Central. Any mention of vaccine safety will get you banned.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

        Weird. I’ve been discussing vaccine safety there for years.

        • AutismDadd

          No you’ve been pandering and lying for years.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            Yes please

          • AutismDadd

            You’ve been on there for years. I rest my case,

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            You can’t just claim and expect that to be enough.

          • AutismDadd

            I just did.

  • GaylePutt

    My great grandfather died of tetanus. I bet he’d wish there’d been a vaccine then. His sister wrote in her journal, “brother John died today. Swore he’d be a better man if he lives”. He was a coal miner in S. Illinois, lost a finger when it was smashed between two ore carts – probably contaminated from all the mules/horses used in the mines. He was a hard working, family man and his loss was devastating to his family.

    • Madame Secret

      give me a break……you clearly don’t know how rare dying of Tetanus is. Your grandfather died as a result of his job…working in a dirty, unregulated and unsafe job as a coal miner. He would have died of black lung disease because that is what coal miners died of at A YOUNG AGE. Don’t tell others that they need to inject w/ deadly toxins because your grandfather was a tool of the industrial greedy magnates like the Rockefeller dynasty.

      • Michael Kerr

        Wow you are a seriously insensitive jerk. You should try not talking.

        • Madame Secret

          I’m insensitive because I believe that vaccine maim and kill? I’m insensitive because rich pig industrialists put human beings in coal mines and couldn’t unify striking to stop the injustice like the auto industry did? you should try educating yourself.

          • GaylePutt

            Sounds like more Liberal bull crap to me. Do you drive a car? Do you use electronics? Do you wash your clothes in a creek or do you have a washing machine? Do you cool your food with ice or a refrigerator? The life style you most likely enjoy is owed to the rich, pig industrialists.

      • Jenny Kenyon

        It is rare in the west to die of tetanus these days, because we are vaccinated, and we have cars instead of horse drawn carts, and fewer people work with cows. But back in the pre-vaccine days, in my grandparents time, it was not that rare, as it is also prevalent in some 3rd world countries. Yes miners died of all those dreadful diseases, but they could also die of tetanus caught via a wound that happened in the vicinity of animal dung.

        • Madame Secret

          you have no clue what tetanus is. you don’t even bother to do research. “Tetanus, sometimes called ‘lockjaw’, is caused when the tetanus bacteria (Clostridium tetani) gets in the blood stream and releases a nervous system toxin called tetanospasmin. Most tetanus comes from soil, animal feces or dust. Puncture wounds are notable because tetanus-harboring dirt or dust collected on the sharp object can be driven into the body. The nail is simply the carrier of the bacteria into the body’s blood stream. (source) http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=47225

          • Jenny Kenyon

            When I was young, and living in the countryside, the fear of us getting tetanus was very great in my parents, and I remember vivid accounts of the truly horrid effects of the illness, and an account of a man who picked his teeth with a pin, and shortly after died of tetanus! I used to live in a remote part of India where the death of newborns was not uncommon due to the parents applying a mixture of cow dung and ash on the cord, I am not ignorant of tetanus, but thanks for the information anyway, it’s kind of you to take the trouble to look it up. Now you see how easily the infection can be acquired are you still against vaccination against it? I agree with you in that big drug companies have too strong a hold on our doctors and health services, and I really do object to being injected with toxins along with the vaccine. But do you think your angry and frankly abusive manner in arguments is the most effective way to get your message across?

          • Madame Secret

            Again..you have no clue what tetanus is….I’m sure fear has ruled your life just like it ruled your parent’s life. Not impressed w/ your story and you opinion of how I come across bothers me not. Thanks for playing!

          • Mike Stevens

            Jenny described tetanus very well. Why do you think she doesn’t know what it is?

          • SS

            Thing is Jenny, today, in the 21st Century when you receive a puncture wound, and are at high rick of contracting Tetanus, REGARDLESS of your vaccination status, if you go for Medical help you will receive the Anti-tetanus immunoglobulin. Just an FYI for you in your Tetanus Crusade

          • FallsAngel

            Not really. If the patient has unknown tetanus vaccine status, or states they’ve never had the vaccine, then the TIG is administered. If the person has had a tetanus shot (DTaP, Tdap, DT, Td) in the last 5 years, nothing is needed. If it’s been > 5 years, a booster is needed.
            Here’s a nice little chart for you to peruse.
            http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/tetanus/hcp/tetwdmgmt.html

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Facts.
            They’re such wonderful things.
            Shanks, FallsAngel.

          • FallsAngel

            A pleasure!

          • Renè
          • GaylePutt

            And the disease has a greater fatality rate in infants and the elderly. The bacteria is everywhere. That was reason enough for me to vaccinate my kids and myself. You do what you believe is right.

          • FallsAngel

            Your point?

          • Mike Stevens

            Rene’s just confirming he has nothing of substance to contribute.
            Out of his intellectual depth, poor fellow, and pining for someone to mention the ebil aluminum, no doubt.

          • FallsAngel

            Is Madame Rene’s sock puppet?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            What’s another word for animal feces?

          • Renè

            Umm…Jonathan Graham?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Not quite. Try again. 😉

          • Renè

            Mike Stevens???

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Keep going. 😉

          • Renè

            Paul Offit?????

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Keep going.

            Hint: It’s a thing, not a name.

          • Renè

            The CDC????

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Keep going.

            Hint: Scroll up.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            The following are not allowed anywhere on Disqus:

            “Impersonation
            You may not impersonate others in a manner that does or is intended to mislead, confuse, or deceive others.”

          • Miκe Stevens

            I have a Greek kappa instead of a ‘k’.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Well, let’s refer it to disqus and see what they have to say.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Lurkers: Watch this:

            Jenny: “but they could also die of tetanus caught via a wound that happened in the vicinity of animal dung.”

            Madame Secret: “you have no clue what tetanus is. you don’t even bother to do research. “Tetanus, sometimes called ‘lockjaw’, is caused when the tetanus bacteria (Clostridium tetani) gets in the blood stream and releases a nervous system toxin called tetanospasmin. Most tetanus comes from soil, animal feces or dust.”

            In other words, Jenny points out that tetanus can be caught via wounds that happened in the vicinity of animal poop. Madame Secret rants about how wrong she is and provides a source that points out that yes, animal poo is a common source.

            Congratulations, Madame Secret. You just proved Jenny right. Open mouth, insert foot.

        • GaylePutt

          Thank you.

      • Bernie

        you’re an idiot

        • Madame Secret

          wow. my feelings are so hurt. LOL

      • GaylePutt

        No….I love how you people who know nothing about it keep trying to tell me it was not tetanus. But liberals love to spin and twist everything to their agenda. He died of tetanus. So you give me a break.

      • FallsAngel

        Rare doesn’t mean it never happened.

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        Can you explain countries with socalised medicine?

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        What was your evidence of deadly toxins again?

    • Al metzger

      No, he probably died from infection. Something we got under control in the late 1900’s. But the same industry that has brought toxic vaccines has also now created untreatable infections and we are now seeing people die from infections again.

      • Jenny Kenyon

        People knew the difference between dying of tetanus and dying of infections even in those days. They used to call it “Lockjaw”, as it made all the muscles stiffen up. And it was far more common back then in the days of horses down the mines, because of the lack of vaccine against it. Horses and cows are known to carry it in their guts.

        • sabelmouse

          or was it lack of wound cleaning ectr? very important with tetanus.

          • FallsAngel

            Always some reason to blame the parents, isn’t there, sabel.

        • dona lou

          Which brings up the point made in the article. Yes, tetanus can be very dangerous, but why vaccinate a baby that has had no injury that could lead to tetanus? Why take the risk of introducing all manner of foreign materials to the undeveloped nervous system of a child who is not at risk of developing tetanus? Tetanus is NOT contagious, so an unvaccinated child poses absolutely no danger to anyone else. And finally, the protection offered by the tetanus vaccine only lasts for about ten years. That’s why teens and adults need a tetanus shot after an injury. Again, why vaccinate a baby for an illness caused by an injury that hasn’t occurred?

          • Mike Stevens

            Look up neonatal tetanus.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            I guess baby can scratch going outdoors to play/crawl around on the lawn. (S)He may get stuck with a thorn or some such and contract tetanus because genius mommy and daddy didn’t think lil’ baby needed a tetanus vaccination.

            Where do these people come from? Pluto?

          • FallsAngel

            Exactly! Plus, it takes three doses of the vaccine to get a full immune response. They have to be given at least a month apart, usual process is two months.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah. Well the greatest risk is from tetanus bacteria entering via the raw umbilical stump. This takes several days to heal, and neonatal tetanus was a feared killer back in the days prior to our modern “sterile” baby environments. But why take the chance?
            Mum needs immunity which can be passed passively, so vaccinating her works wonders, rather than vaxing the baby. Of course mothers cannot pass magic natural immunity to the baby through the placenta, since humans do not develop any natural immunity to tetanus, even if mum had had an attack.

            In the third world neonatal tetanus is a real killer. They often put cow dung on the stump; not a good idea.
            One of my worst nights ever as a junior doc was struggling to keep a newborn alive through the night, infusing antibiotics, and diazepam to control seizures, trying to preserve the airway and assist ventilation through each spasm which led to total apnoea, and telling mum at 6am that we had failed. Then back on duty for 8am again.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Thanks for the info, Mike.
            I chose the US suburban example because of the well known empathy the anti-vaccine cult has for foreigners with brown skin dying of disease – which is “So what!? They’re from the 3rd world! They deserve to die!”

          • Miκe Stevens

            Yeah. Those brownies I tell ya’!

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Hi, Rene.
            Impersonating Mike again?
            Pitiful.

            Flagged and reported.

          • Miκe Stevens

            Still impersonating a schizophrenic?

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            It seems that the anti-vaccine troll Rene has decided to now impersonate me.
            I hope the anti-vaccine cultists and those who support them are observing the type of lunatic their cult attracts.

            Flagged and Reported.

            Now, I wonder how many phony posts I can get my new pet monkey to make.

          • Realiτy022

            You have pet monkey?

            I can only imagine why…

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Needs moar cymbal, my little trolling, impersonating, anti-vax monkey.

          • Realiτy022

            I have a fever, and the only prescription is more cymbal!!!

          • duplicat

            Join the Woo Side by August 15th and get a free coffee enema!!

          • Renè

            (S)He may get stuck with a thorn or some such…

            A thorn? Where do you live, Alabama?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Maybe a prickle instead, then.

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            We have roses, hawthorn, locust, blackberries and other thorny plants in NY, doofus.

          • Renè
          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Hi, Rene.
            Finally sunk to the inevitable disgrace of impersonating other posters to make your “enemies” look bad?
            Pitiful and deranged.
            The anti-vaccine cult must be so proud to have you as a member.

            Flagged and reported.

            Note: It is Rene because you can look at the ID of the above poster “Mike Stevens” and see that his profile shows:
            @Escobar314
            Comments 1565 516 Upvotes
            which just so happens to be Rene’s ID and post tally seen in his various posts which have now all reverted to the display name of “Mike Stevens”.
            See this Rene post: disqus(dot)com/home/discussion/yournewswire/harvard_unvaccinated_children_pose_zero_risk/#comment-3319755178
            as imaged earlier, before he changed his display name:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a2656f4f75266a1a65698b046dcbe9e4710312ce9d70d4da3867c5b0dd3d9a02.jpg
            Then check his profile info in that imaged “Rene” post and note his ID is @Escobar314

            Can you say “sleazy”, Rene?
            I knew you could, you POS.

          • Miκe Stevens
          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Oh look! My troll is impersonating me.

            Dance, monkey.
            Dance!

            Flagged and Reported.

          • Realiτy022

            Insane old man thinks aluminum is a vitamin.

            Fagged and reported.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Can you link to the aluminum is a vitamin comment?

          • Renè

            Look up Alzheimer’s and aluminum.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            What does the D and aP stand for in that vaccine?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Diphtheria and Pertussis is the major point wrt to risk to others.

            And you do realise that vaccines, by definition, are given before the exposure

      • GaylePutt

        No…. it was tetanus.

      • FallsAngel

        Tetanus is an infection. It’s just not communicable person to person.

    • Tom Bombadil

      For what it is worth, tetanus is very treatable today, though painful.

      • FallsAngel

        The fatality rate for tetanus in the early 2000s was 13.2%.
        https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6012a1.htm

        For those of you unacquainted with epidemiology, that’s pretty high.

        • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

          If a 1:8 chance of dying is “very treatable” I’d hate to see the definition of difficult to treat.
          And the treatment is being put into a coma for about a month and given mass doses of medications to ease the muscle spasms.

          Hmmm… which to get?
          A little pin-prick of a vaccine or a drug induced coma and large quantities of injectable medications?
          Decisions… decisions…

          • Renè

            Reality has a 1:8 chance of dying from asphyxiation tonight while he masturbates with with his belt tied around his neck.

          • Mike Stevens

            You sound like someone with knowledge drawn from personal experience, Rene.

          • Renè

            A little, from watching the videos you sent me.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well I thought you should have them, since your boyfriend had sneakily recorded them through your wardrobe door.

          • Renè

            Thanks Mike. Great video!! How did you survive that? That was nearly three minutes of autoerotic asphyxiation [14:45—17:23] following by a three-pound gerbil at [19:52].

          • Mike Stevens

            You were the video subject Rene.
            The cerebral anoxia clearly addled your aluminium-addled memory circuits.

          • Renè

            I’m quite certain that was you Mike. I saw your anchor tattoo that you got in The Navy, the one with the blonde sailor.

          • Mike Stevens

            Whenever you claim you are “certain” of something Rene, we all know you are lying like a dog in the sun.

          • Renè

            I heard about the time you got scurvy in The Navy and a blond sailor rescued you by giving you his lime from his gin & tonic (and a wink!).

            You were never straight since then.

          • poppy72

            WOW, Pray tell, where do you get this information?

          • Miκe Stevens

            Do you really want to know what happened to me in The Navy?

          • poppy72

            No, it is none of my business, I do not wish to pry into anyones private business,ME WRONG I thought I was replying to Rene, must get my eyes checked,SORRY, Far out I even upvoted myself. Not having a good day.

          • Realiτy022

            Get your fix in today?

          • poppy72

            finally caught onto you,

          • poppy72

            I can see you getting bashed, but I do not believe you were ever in the Navy.

          • poppy72

            I think there has been a switcheroo. You were replying to Rene? But I see the reply as showing to Reality022.

          • JGC

            Rene has changing his pseudonym to impersonate various other posters. When he does all posts he’s authored change to the new identity.

          • poppy72

            So how do I know who is out Reality22 or is 022

          • JGC

            The fake Reality022 is spelled with a Greek Tau rather than a lower case t. if you hover your cursor over the name you’ll see a URL appear in the border at the bottom of the screen that gives a URL ending in Escobar314. That’s rene.

          • poppy72

            Many thanks for helping a 72 year old (me ).

          • Realiτy022

            Watch out for the aluminum!!!

            Don’t let them vaccinate you!!!!

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            The pro-reality/pro-vax Reality022 has a public profile.

          • poppy72

            Thank you for your help.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s a fake account – Rene is impersonating Reality022 now, having done so to me earlier.
            Look at the different “t” in Reality to see the difference.

            Rene’s real name is Travis Schwochert. He is well known on science boards for impersonating other commenters.
            He’s an unmarried, unemployed man living with his father in Wisconson.
            http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2017/02/the-fendlesworth-mystery-or-travis-j-schwochert-we-see-you.html

          • poppy72

            Sounds like he could be related to Lowell.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cousins?
            ..or just the results of inbreeding?

          • shay simmons

            I believe they both have police records.

          • poppy72

            And why am I not surprised

          • kfunk937

            TJ’s 2002 felony charge was dismissed on Prosecutor’s motion, which clears him legally. And there are no others, unless I missed something (which is certainly possible, as I’m as fallible as anyone else and WI court records are not very user-friendly—note: I didn’t set out stalker-like to snoop, but ran across something suggestive in an unrelated search that deserved to follow up, and was happy to rule it out).

          • shay simmons

            Thanks…I’ll refrain from that comment in future.

          • Realiτy022

            You stalker!!!!

            Why don’t you stop bothering the vaccines safety advocates?

            Read some fun aluminum studies!

            Aluminum-induced neurotoxicity and oxidative damage
            in rabbits: protective effect of melatonin

            Aluminum injections is how they create Alzheimer’s in animals.

          • kfunk937

            You’re welcome, Travis.

            Please take note that unlike the so-called “safety advocates”, we are able to adjust to new information (e.g., see shay, above). Please also take note that I’m not the one who is actually stalking and impersonating others, employing targetted harassment all over the interwebz on science-based sites and articles. That would be you.

            Your aluminum-Alzheimer’s link study was not “fun”. It’s irrelevant. Because it’s off-topic (AlCl3 is not a vaccine adjuvent—see vaccine ingredients—and it’s a small, poorly-designed, pre-clinical rabbit study flogging the out-dated hypothesis that environmental Al exposure is aetiologic in Alzheimer’s). Thanks for providing the title, btw (although a PMID would suffice), because I’m unlikely to click on a link from someone using homoglyphs.

            You should get a different hobby. There are free university-level classes online called MOOCs, such as those offered by Coursera, if you prefer interweb-based communication. Or, you know, you could venture outside IRL, maybe to the local community college, where you’d have a fighting chance to pick up some education (and perhaps polish your social skills). And, who knows, it might to something better. You might even grow up.

            Have a nice day, Travis.

          • Realiτy022

            You’re a joke Ms. Funk.

            This is not an outdated theory. Most Alzheimer’s researchers know that aluminum is heavily involved.

            You are the one not keeping up with science.

            It has been found directly at the center of neurofibrillary tangles: http://sci-hub.cc/http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.410310310/full

            The morin stain and the Walton stain allow you to visualize aluminum directly.

            Every single study that I’ve read with injected aluminum show a statistically significant deleterious effect.

            And dialysis encephalopathy shows that aluminium causes dementia, along with epidemiological studies on aluminum exposure.

            Hand wave it away; you’re just exposing your own ignorance.

          • kfunk937

            Most researchers know

            Wow, you sound like Cheetolini, and equally credible. Which is to say, immediately to be doubted. Have you been taking laughingstock lessons? Good job!

            Is the chronic high Al load in dialysis equivalent in any way the miniscule, periodic Al exposure of routine childhood vaccination? What is the route of Al excretion? How might that be affected by impaired renal function? Finally, what do dialysis patients—renally impared by definition—have to do with the average vaccinee?

            Hint: no, urinary, decreased, and nothing (unless they’re in acute renal failure, ESRD or late CKD). It’s just more hand-waving on your part with another off-topic and irrelevant study. Yawn.

          • Aluminati

            Is the chronic high Al load in dialysis equivalent in any way the miniscule [sic], periodic Al exposure of routine childhood vaccination?

            It demonstrates the neurotoxic effect of aluminum. The dementia it induces is similar to Alzheimer’s. The histological changes were identical, see:

            Alzheimer’s disease-like changes in tau protein processing: association
            with aluminium accumulation in brains of renal diaysis patients.

            http://sci-hub.cc/http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673694901244

            If you can just admit that adequate amounts of aluminum can cause tau protein crosslinking and dementia, we can move on.

          • Realiτy022

            Your aluminum-Alzheimer’s link study was […] irrelevant. Because it’s off-topic (AlCl3 is not a vaccine adjuvent—

            No crap, but that doesn’t matter. Aluminum chloride readily ionizes into water.

            [Al(H₂O)₆]³⁺(aq) + H₂O(l) → [Al(H₂O)₅OH]²⁺(aq) + H₃O⁺(aq)

            Many people will realize that they were injecting the hydrated aluminum ion, and the chloride ion matters little.

            Go back to Kunt State University Kathleen.

            http://rod.beavon.org.uk/AlCl3_and_water.htm

          • kfunk937

            Who’s Kathleen?

          • Aluminati
        • Tom Bombadil

          From your cited article, being over age 65 is the single-most relevant factor in fatalities. In fact, in the multivariable model lack of vaccination were not statistically significant:

          “Among all persons with reported tetanus, the risk for fatal disease was greater among those aged ≥65 years than those aged <65 years (relative risk [RR] = 5.1; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 2.1–12.2), among those with diabetes than those without diabetes (RR = 2.4; CI = 1.2–4.8), and among those with no TT vaccination compared with those with ≥1 doses of TT (RR = 4.0; CI = 1.2–14.1). However, in the multivariable model, comparing age ≥65 years versus <65 years, diabetes versus no diabetes, and no doses of vaccination versus 1 dose, neither diabetes (odds ratio [OR] = 1.3; CI = 0.2–7.2) nor vaccination (OR = 3.1; CI = 0.7–15.1) were statistically significant. Age ≥65 years remained a factor for greater risk for fatal tetanus (OR = 9.6 ; CI = 3.6–25.0) in a final parsimonious model including only age. Sex, injection drug use, Hispanic ethnicity, unknown vaccination history, and acute injuries (versus chronic wounds) were not associated with increased risk for fatal disease in either univariate or multivariable analyses."

          • FallsAngel

            Low risk does not mean “No Risk”.

          • Tom Bombadil

            Clarification unnecessary.

          • FallsAngel

            From the tone of the conversation, I would disagree.

  • Madame Secret

    LOVE it when the educated professionals actually stand up and tell us the truth……and she is NOT paid by industry. this might explain why she feels comfortable telling the truth.

    • Mike Stevens

      “LOVE it when the educated professionals actually stand up and tell us the truth”

      I love it too, especially when those educated professionals are the thousands of scientists and doctors who work in the fields of vaccines and infections, and who aren’t (like Tatyana) inexperienced in the topic and distorting and twisting the facts to suit their own antivaccine agenda.

    • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle
  • Judy Adkins Hill

    bullcrap. notice how she says NOTHING about the MMR vaccine – the lack of which totally destroys her argument. MEASLES KILLS. as for the DTaP – yeah, sure – trust me on this: I’m allergic to the pertussis vaccine. I’m immunocompromised. if I’m exposed to someone with pertussis, I COULD DIE. this woman needs to have her mouth sewn shut.

    • Literati

      In case you can’t read

      ‘is variants (PRN-negative strains) currently circulating in the USA acquired a selective advantage to infect those who are up-to-date for their DTaP boosters, meaning that people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.”

      • Vanessa Cracknell Mclean

        And where are her sources? Anyone can make wild, unsubstantiated claims, and there will always be ignorant, stupid people who believe them. Cite the research, cite the peer reviewed studies please. Reading through the comment section, except for a few sane respondents, has made my brain cells commit suicide! So much stupidity masquerading as knowledge is enough to make me sick!

        • Anne

          If you cannot figure out where her sources are and what her sources are then you really should not be commenting.

          • Mike Stevens

            She cannot even figure out her sources, or she’d cite them, surely?
            Her conclusions are purely speculative, and are contradicted by the current clinical experience and epidemiology of pertussis.

          • Anne

            Again, she does site her sources. You need to learn the procedure that is used.

          • Mike Stevens

            OK, where is her scientific source for the claim that: “people who are up-to-date are more likely to be infected, and thus contagious, than people who are not vaccinated.” (referred to in the post just above?)

    • Al metzger

      Lol. You are just being hysterical now. Let’s see, how many died in that “world ending epidemic” of measles (at least thats how the media was making it sound) in California? ZERO!!! Did you even read what she said about the measles vaccine? No, didnt think so. Same can be said about the mumps vaccine. Latest outbreak was among those up to date on the MMR and once again it is now affecting the older which is MUCH more dangerous. Harvard had a mumps outbreak in the 80’s among a group that was 100% vaccinated. And if you ever are exposed to pertussis, it most likely will be by someone that is vaccinated. A study done about a decade ago showed the same thing, the pertussis vaccine had no lasting effect, if any, and there was no difference in protection in teens between those vaccinated or unvaccinated.

      • FallsAngel

        I’m glad no one died in the Disney outbreak. That seems to be the anti-vaxers big point. However, 25% of the patients were hospitalized, meaning they were very ill as it is hard to get hospitalized in the US. By stats, 30% of them will have some complication, including vision and hearing problems, mental retardation due to encephalitis, and some may get SSPE in later years and die then.

        The stats from the MN measles outbreak – where those despicable anti-vaxers including the grand poobah Wakefield took advantage of those poor Somali refugees to tell them the MMR was causing autism in their kids, a word that doesn’t exist in their own language – show currently 94% unvaccinated.
        http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/measles/#Example1

        It was just a little more than a decade ago that the Tdap vaccine came out, allowing people over age 7 to be vaccinated with pertussis. If your “study” came out before that, it’s irrelevant.

        • Al metzger

          You have no clue. Tdap has been proven to be ineffective for long term. You totally ignored my other points because you have no answer for them. People like you are absolute asses and the reason large corporations and corrupt governments keep getting away with all the crap they do. You don’t care about truth, you just have decided to believe something (for what ever reason) and damn the evidence. MMR does cause autism, Wakefields coauthor won in court and proved they did not use fraud. Wake up you stupid shill. Autism has rocketed up out of sight and there is only one reason. VACCINES!!

          • FallsAngel

            Actually, I addressed several points in your Gish-gallop. Wakefield’s author won in court because he said Wakefield lied to him, and the court bought it.

          • Al metzger

            Oh what BS. Just another stupid shill, aren’t you. You are not even worth the effort because you obviously don’t care about the facts, just money. Right?

            But for others…Mump outbreak down south among the vaccinated, just like at Harvard. Disney measles outbreak most likely by a vaccinated person and the majority of those that got measles WERE up to date on the MMR! Pertussis study done by PRO-vaccine group showed it was not effective. 2 studies now proving un-vaccinated children healthier overall. Limited study in Japan made a connection to autism and too many vaccines at an early age, that’s why they have a much smaller vaccine schedule tha us. Flu studies prove the flu shot does NOT help protect patients in the health care setting and yet the flu shot is still forced onto healthcare workers. (It’s ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!! HELLO!) New epidemic of shingles BECAUSE of the chickenpox vaccine (which by the way was NEVER intended for the general population, it was only to be used by high risk children, a fact any doctor over 50 should know). ALL diseases were already coming WAY down before vaccines even introduced. Easy to prove by chart as long as you are not using the big pharma charts only going back to the 50’s or so. Look up the charts going back to the 1800’s. Several diseases never even had a vaccine and they came down at the same rate. On and on I could go. Vaccines are nothing more than a money generator for big pharma. Your kids ARE getting damaged by this crap.

          • FallsAngel

            Quite the Gish-gallop here. And since you call me stupid, I presume it’s OK for me to call you names as well. No, I am not a shill. I am retired.

            The mumps outbreak at Harvard-60 cases among students, faculty and staff, a community of ~40,000 people. That works out to 0.15% of the community. I have never seen any evidence that all these cases were vaccinated. MA does have medical and religious exemptions to vaccines, and likely has no requirements for faculty/staff. If everyone was immunized, the vaccine is 99.85% effective!

            There are many studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids. Most show that vaccinated kids are less likely to get vaccine preventable diseases.

            Japan has the highest autism rate in the world, despite their fiddling with the vaccine schedule. They also had a rubella outbreak with a number of Congenital Rubella Syndrome cases. CRS is actually a CAUSE of autism.

            Shingles rates have gone up in countries that do not use the chickenpox vaccine as well as in those that do use it. There is no evidence that the vaccine is a cause if the increase in shingles. It is also ghoulish to use the illness of kids, which can cause death to provide “booster” doses of chickenpox to adults. There is a shingles vaccine. Please provide some evidence that chickenpox vaccine was only supposed to be for high risk kids. I was “present at the creation” so to speak, and never heard that.

            The incidence of no disease for which we vaccinate was dropping before the vaccine came out. In fact, the incidence of polio was increasing. http://www.post-polio.org/ir-usa.html The incidence of measles remained at near 100% until the vaccine came out then dropped like a stone. https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/graph-us-measles-cases Hib cases also dropped like a rock after the introduction of universal vaccination. https://www.google.com/search?q=hib+deaths+graph&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiendmlnqDUAhUPyWMKHZMTASQQsAQIKw&biw=1860&bih=906#tbm=isch&q=hempophilus+influenza+b+deaths+graph&imgrc=PHtxtWBulz-7nM:

            Mumps and chickenpox were also ubiquitous, and rubella infected about 85% pre-vaccine.

            I’m sure you could go on and on. Unfortunately, you’re not telling the truth, either deliberately (lying) or because you’re ignorant.

          • FallsAngel

            Just realized I didn’t address the Disney outbreak. 77%of patients for whom records were available had NOT been vaccinated. Those who had no records were probably even less likely to be vaccinated. No one knows who” “Patient Zero” was.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle
          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Al, can you show me that autism has skyrockted using a consistent definition?

            Why did Wakefield lose his libel case in England?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d56f4f488f1e220bc6804cad4d584e41f16d4033f44663cac4bc165a91b6e447.jpg

    • Zena Field

      sewn shut? or your eyes WIRED open?
      I went behind my mother’s back to get my MMR shot at school..aged 11years. Now I have asthma and a weakened immune system and what? I’ve had mumps, measles doesn’t sound too bad, with or without the jab . . and rubella . ? well, they throw that in there for a bit of a “scare you into it” factor.
      If people weren’t so duped into supposedly maintaining proper protein and calcium (etc) requirements from cows milk (for a calfs metabolic needs) then I believe we wouldn’t have such high inflammatory responses to diseases.. as a mucous stimulant, cows milk in whooping cough and other infections, inflammatory situations, . . not good.

    • Madame Secret

      measles kills…ha ha ha. yeah. clearly you never watched the 1969 episode of the Brady Bunch where the measles was just a slight inconvenience. then the MMR vaccine was created in 1971 and all of a sudden…..DANGER!!! DANGER!! Pass the 1986 Vaccine Act and make vaccine makers immune from prosecution and there’s your ticket to ride!!!! $$$$$$$ riches without responsibility!

      • Anne

        OH good grief. I grew up at a time before there were measles or mumps vaccinations. Everybody came down with those diseases. Often if a kid came down with measles or mumps then parents took their kids over so they would get exposed (especially during summer break) to get it over with. I realize that is not scientific evidence but I never knew one person who died from either.

        • Lenora perry

          Me too. No one died that I knew. No one was freaked out about it. You got it and they were glad you got it as a kid.

          • http://islamnz.com Alan Ireland

            I, too, had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc. – as did my brothers and everyone else I knew. Likewise, I never heard of anyone dying from these diseases, which my parents seemed to regard with nonchalance. How the times have changed! I’m bemused by all this panic and hysteria.

          • sabelmouse

            same here!

          • Mike Stevens

            Only around one in 2000 died of measles, so most people won’t have known another child who died. But your own experience is not a reliable indicator of the disease burden of measles and other infections.

            The panic and hysteria you talk of is all coming from the antivaxers, who strangely seem to think the vaccines will suddenly turn everyone into dribbling vegetables.

          • http://islamnz.com Alan Ireland

            “But your own experience is not a reliable indicator of the disease burden…”

            I
            never offered my comment as a “reliable indicator” of anything. It’s just an
            anecdote. But such anecdotes do, collectively, say something about
            prevailing attitudes (in England) in the days before we vaccinated against the “childhood diseases”. And perhaps more
            importantly, they counter the claim, which is sometimes made in
            columns such as this, that we lived in constant fear of illness and
            death.

            “The panic and hysteria you talk of is all coming from the antivaxers…”

            Not true. Any outbreak – or feared outbreak – of any infectious disease is guaranteed to generate scare headlines. I know. I spent close to 50 years in mainstream journalism, writing such headlines. That’s probably one reason why I take absolutely no notice of them.

            If people want to have themselves vaccinated, that’s fine with me – provided they are able to give fully informed consent. It’s distressing to read, or hear, numerous testimonies in which the patient (or patient’s parent) says, too late, “I wish I had done my research” or “I wish I had followed my instinct”, or “I wish I hadn’t allowed myself to be pressured by my doctor”.

            It’s distressing, too, to find such people, who have sometimes suffered an appalling personal tragedy (for whatever reason), then being treated dismissively, even arrogantly, by supporters of the “system”.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well I’m pleased you recognise your contribution as being only of anecdotal relevance, but other readers might well view it as verification that measles is completely benign, which of course it isn’t.
            I haven’t seen anyone say we used to live in constant fear of death from infectious diseases in the past, but it wouldn’t be far from the truth. Three in ten kids died from it 100 years ago. And to cite an anecdote of my own, my uncle died of meningitis on his first birthday.
            Contrast those odds with the risks of death from vaccination (less than one in a million) and you should get the idea of the relative situations.

          • Alan Ireland

            Measles was described in the BMJ in 1959 as “nowadays normally a mild infection”. Of course, it was more serious in impoverished, inner-city areas. All diseases are. And as you say, the “childhood diseases” were also more serious 100 years ago. However, that is not the period I am talking about. I am talking about the 1940s and 1950s, when I was growing up. I can assure you that in leafy, affluent southern Warwickshire, we did not fear death from any of the infections that periodically came around. I am certainly glad that I had measles, rather than a vaccine against it. Ditto everything else. My natural immunity, which has (apparently) lasted a lifetime, is definitely preferable to the partial, temporary immunity that comes through a needle. Furthermore, neither I nor my peers suffer, or have suffered (as far as I know), from any of the many chronic conditions that afflict so many young people today. During my six years at boarding school, I don’t think we had anyone with asthma, diabetes, food allergies, or neurological disorders.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well yes, measles is normally a mild infection. Only one in 2000 dies from it.
            But you don’t need to go back 50 years to look at the possible consequences.
            In the US outbreaks 1987-2000, there were 62,000 cases, and 177 died, and around 19% ended up hospitalised. And recall the recent Wales outbreak, with 1500 cases and one death.

            Measles immunity is usually lifelong, but then so is that from the vaccine. There is only one recorded instance in the medical literature where a previously fully vaccinated and immune individual has subsequently caught and then transmitted natural measles. It is clearly vanishingly rare.

            Your implication that it causes asthma, diabetes, neurological disorders and food allergies is without foundation. Vaccines only extremely rarely cause some of these problems.

          • Realiτy022

            From Aluminum-induced neurotoxicity and oxidative damage in rabbits: protective effect of melatonin, we read:

            Aluminum (Al) is a well-known toxic agent and represents a severe problem for a variety of medical [1] as well as environmental situations [2]. The evidence
            implicating Al as a neurotoxin has been continuously mounting.

            Now…I know whenever you read the words “continuously mounting” you get a flashback from The Navy, but I really think you ought to read this.

          • http://islamnz.com Alan Ireland

            Of course some people – mainly those who are immunocompromised – will die if they contract measles (or some other “normally mild” infection). Right now, I am probably carrying something that could kill me if my immune system were impaired for some reason. Do you seriously expect me to become an advocate of vaccination for that reason?

            Actually, I used to accept vaccines. In fact, I accepted almost everything that was on offer, and trotted along, year after year, for my flu shot. Like many people, I never gave the matter a second thought. Looking back, and after reading innumerable articles and books on the subject of vaccination (I am currently reading a book about the anthrax vaccines), I think I was crazy.

            Even according to the notoriously corrupt CDC, about 3 percent of people who receive two doses of the measles vaccine
            will get measles if they come in contact with someone who has the virus.

            My belief, on the basis of what I have read, is that the vaccine schedule, as a whole, is one of the contributors to the meteoric rise in the incidence of the problems I have mentioned. Glyphosate, I believe, is another.

            Something you medical people have to understand is that you are losing us. I, for one, am appalled by the greed, cynicism, mendacity and ruthlessness that underlies much of the pharmaceutical-medical industry. I will do whatever I can to keep myself out of its clutches.

            This debate is now closed. Any reply to this post will go unread.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Figures that you won’t read past this point.

            Lurkers: The above poster cited someone who is, by her own standards, notoriously corrupt. Why on earth did they cite someone who is notoriously corrupt?

          • Erin Oakley

            Go vaccines ⚑

            I get a flu shot every day!

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Then you’re a plonker.

          • Erin Oakley

            Big words for a turtle.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Address the claims.

          • shay simmons

            Tell that to my youngest brother. Make sure he’s got his hearing aids in, first. Somehow in our upper middle class Midwest suburb in 1962 he managed to catch that “mild infection” that left him with something more than just natural immunity.

          • JoeFarmer

            Alan is a fascinating study in revisionist history. Happens in countries other than England, vis a vis the people that revere Ronald Reagan nowadays but weren’t actually alive at the time…

          • shay simmons

            He sounds like another dreary example of the cia parker/Ron Roy school of “if it didn’t happen to me or anyone I know, it didn’t happen.”

          • JoeFarmer

            Yep. I entered public school in the mid-1960s and we had kids with braces on their legs from polio We had deaf kids, too. There weren’t special programs back then, we just tried to be good citizens and help them with regular day-to-day stuff.

            One of the things I learned back then was the kids with the worst handicaps (which you can’t say anymore because it’s not PC) were inspirational because they never complained and never asked to be treated special. So they probably helped us more than we helped them, truth be told.

          • Erin Oakley

            What? Like this guy is believable, he’s a white supremacist. I have a screenshot of what he was saying on a different page:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/869d404f93352bb0a7affb084cab3b26303c9acd8447d41b9e013d393f453be8.png

          • Erin Oakley

            One of the things I learned back then was the kids with the worst handicaps (which you can’t say anymore because it’s not PC) were inspirational because they never complained and never asked to be treated special. So they probably helped us more than we helped them, truth be told.

            Right Joe!

            All of the vaccine-paralyzed kids these days are depressed and think they’re entitled to compensation. They should be proud to be vaccine-damaged! proud to take one for the team!

            We need to convince children that vaccine-damage is cool, Guillaine-Barre is cool, and wheelchairs are awesome.

          • AutismDadd

            So you didn’t complain.

          • Erin Oakley

            … fascinating study in revisionist history.

            You would know all about revisionist history, you Holocaust Denier!!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/869d404f93352bb0a7affb084cab3b26303c9acd8447d41b9e013d393f453be8.png

          • FallsAngel

            Sad. Just a year before the first vaccines for measles came out.

          • shay simmons

            Even more sad. He was an infant, but the extent of the damage wasn’t really discovered until he was a teenager (military induction physical). That sounds kind of weird but I have six brothers and sisters and my mother always had her hands full with the most recent baby.

            Heck, nobody noticed I was blind as a bat until I was seven and the nuns were trying to figure out why I was flunking all of my classes.

          • JoeFarmer

            ” I am talking about the 1940s and 1950s, when I was growing up. I can
            assure you that in leafy, affluent southern Warwickshire, we did not
            fear death…”

            Mostly because Great Britain was still suffering from damage from WWII, genius. It’s like saying, “We weren’t bombed regularly by the Luftwaffe, so times were great!” Great Britain didn’t come close to approaching other Western World countries in basic economic services like food, transportation and healthcare until well into the 1960s.

          • FallsAngel

            Here’s where I post what one Ephraim Harris, Colonist and Farmer of Fairfield, NJ wrote in 1759.

            “That fatal and never to be forgotten year, 1759, when the Lord sent the destroying Angel to pass through this place, and removed many of our friends into eternity in a short space of time; and not a house exempt, not a family spared from the calamity. So dreadful was it that it made every ear tingle, and every heart bleed; in which time I and my family were exercised with that dreadful disorder, the measles. But by blessed God our lives were spared.”

            Yeah, piece of cake.

            WRT your boarding school, it is possible 1) you didn’t know everyone’s medical history; 2) the school did not accept people with asthma, diabetes, food allergies or neurological disorders.

        • FallsAngel

          You know, for as much as I’ve read about these “parties”, I do not know one person who ever hosted one or attended one. The one article I could find about them written up in the media was from the LA Times repeating a rumor that said parties were being thrown in. . . Canada! No one knows of any that actually happened!
          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-d-moreno/will-measles-parties-retu_b_14479732.html

          • Anne

            I never said it was a party, did I? I said that often when a kid came down with one of these diseases then parents would take their kids over to be exposed. Not sure why you would expect the media to have information about this. I lived it and remember it well although it was more like a visit and not a party.

          • FallsAngel

            Honestly, I never heard of that, either, and I grew up in the 50s/60s.

          • JGC

            As I recall from my experience growing up in the late 50’s and 60’s, not only did this not occur but there also wasn’t any need to take your kids anywhere for them to be contract these diseases: it was going to happen whether you wanted it to or not..

      • Mike Stevens

        “measles kills…ha ha ha. yeah.”

        Yes – in the USA it killed around 450 kids every year until vaccinations were introduced. I guess those deaths are amusing… lot’s of antivaxers seem to find them so.
        And yes, it still kills – around 6 people every hour, globally.

        • Renè

          How many cases of vaccine-induced Gullaine-Barré?

          • Mike Stevens

            The term is “Guillain-Barré”, Rene.
            Learn how to spell it before you pretend you know anything about it.

          • Renè

            LOL. Says the guy that called it “Guillane-Barré Encephalopathy”.

            Sure Mike.

            Here are some court cases where the Judge awarded money based on vaccines playing a causal role in GBS: https://www.mctlawyers.com/vaccine-injury/cases/

            [scroll down]

          • Mike Stevens

            You’re the guy without a clue about GBS, Rene, don’t forget it.
            And look up the VICP sometime will you?

          • Renè

            Look up aluminum neurotoxicity sometime Mike. There are tons of data on this: https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&q=aluminum+neurotoxicity&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Also, look up the NNIICP court sometimes….

          • Mike Stevens

            Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Rene.
            Get help.

          • JGC

            Actually, these are examples of the NVICP awarding compensation for the table injury GBS. Compensation given for table injuries represents a settlement, without the case being heard in court or the court issuing a finding that the vaccine was the cause of the injury compensation is given for.

          • JGC

            Far, far fewer than infectious disease-induced Guillain-Barre, Rene.

      • Kevin Williams

        Citing a 1960s sitcom as evidence? I think you’re about ready to co-author a paper with Tetyana Obukhanych.

        The NVCIA does not provide complete immunity to vaccine manufacturers, Rather, it provides limited immunity from lawsuits for design defects, in that claimants must first go through the “vaccine court” for compensation. If they are unhappy with the outcome there, they are still entitled to bring a civil suit against vaccine manufacturers in Federal court. The NVCIA does NOT shield the vaccine manufacturers from manufacturing defects or labeling defects, nor does it protect them from criminal liability. Apparently the Brady Bunch failed to provide you with a thorough briefing on the the NVCIA. Perhaps it was on the Partridge Family or the Monkees.

      • FallsAngel

        Ha ha ha! Getting one’s medical information from lame 60s sit-coms. Yeah, that’s where I get all of mine!

        • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

          I get mine from lame 50s sit-coms – The Donna Reed Show where Jeff comes down with measles and Shelley Fabares as … (Boy was Shelley Fabares a doll and a fantasy for every red blooded American teen male.)
          Well, you get the picture.

          I also consult Green Acres when I want an alt-reality, psychedelic opinion on various subjects. (Arnold Ziffel is the key!)

          Have fun.

          • Renè

            Wooo!

            More ridiculous ignorance from the wanabee Realityengineer022.

            Aluminum in the brain has been proven to disrupt and crosslink τ-protein by binding the phosphate groups. The τ-protein stabilizes microtubules, which are the proteins that create consciousness .

            Aluminum always causes dementia, diabetics prove this. The Camelford Water Incident proves this too.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6Mt9BoZ_M

      • JGC

        Because when I need accurate and detailed information regarding the risk associated with infectious diseases, the first source I’ll turn to are episodes of television sitcoms from the early 70’s.

  • nmcard

    Vaccines are a contaminated mess and are spreading disease globally. Vaccines are an absolute crime against humanity and the biggest medical scandal in history. ANYONE pro vaccine has not taken the time to study the issue in full and are contributing to the harm of our nation through their unfounded arrogance and complete ignorance. To be pro vaccine at this point means to be anti child, anti health, anti freedom and pro pharmaceutical industry.

  • Alvin Gallant

    Peer review?

  • Hermela

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  • AutismDadd

    A must read for Vaccine Safety Advocates AND the lying shills who are constantly spreading the lies this story defeats.

  • Nick Poliskey

    She was never with harvard. this is made up non-sense

    • http://luisdiazartist.tumblr.com/ Luis Diaz

      “She subsequently held postdoctoral research training appointments in prominent immunology laboratories affiliated with Harvard Medical School and Stanford University School of Medicine.” From her website.

      • ibid.

        Resume padding. It’s common for people to exaggerate their credentials as some kind of expert when they’re trying to use them as an authority to promote an ideological opinion. That’s propaganda 101.

        • akell47a

          Where has she misrepresented her credentials? I’m not seeing it.

          • Eric Sandberg

            Are you not seeing the word “affiliated” at all? These aren’t places that are Harvard and Stanford. There could be many of ways that they could be affiliated. You could find 6 degrees of affiliation through Kevin Bacon in those statements.

          • akell47a

            Are you denying that those laboratories are “affiliated” with Harvard/Stanford? If so, what do you positive state IS the relationship between those laboratories and Harvard/Stanford? Let’s not beat around the bush.

          • Eric Sandberg

            How about just posting the labs and letting their credentials speak for themselves and not just put out Harvard/Stanford? Also, what was her role at these labs? From what I have found, she was just doing lab technician work as a post-doc. She has never been the lead of any research team at a lab and was only once the listed as the lead AUTHOR of a research paper, out of only 8 total papers in her entire career that she is listed on. Also, 3 of those papers actually supported vaccinations while her involvement doesn’t appear to be in the actual vaccines themselves. It appears she probably assisted in some research in the immune response as a post-doc, but it wasn’t much more than doing assays, which is pretty basic work. Even if I ignore all of that and I give her the credentials, we judge research based on the quality of work done and her quality of work is so bad that she has had to self publish her own books.

            TL;DR – Her credentials are crap. This whole article (and Tetyana Obukhanych herself) rides on an appeal to false authority logical fallacy.

      • Valerie Finnigan

        Holding “post-doctoral research training appointments in prominent (but unnamed) immunology laboratories affiliated (probably at most loosely) with Harvard Medical School” doesn’t mean she speaks for Harvard as the article says.

        • akell47a

          Valerie, since the article nowhere states that she speaks for Harvard (although I admit the dramatic headline implies it), seems like you have a little credibility problem of your own now. Your comment above also contains non-fact-based speculation, besides the one outright untruth. So let’s be a little more careful and stick to a scientific mindset, please.

          • nbgiant25

            akell47a, the title of the article is Harvard: Unvaccinated Children Pose Zero Risk.The tagline starts with “A Harvard Immunologist”, which she is not. There’s no implying here. It’s an outright attempt at deception, hoping an appeal to authority wins over those who might otherwise use their brains.

        • Linda Holmes

          This doctor of science holds impressive credentials. To negate who she is just because Harvard did write the article shows a clear bias: “Born in Ukraine, Tetyana Obukhanych came to the United States to pursue her education. In 2006, she defended her Ph.D. thesis in Immunology at The Rockefeller University, New York, NY. She subsequently held postdoctoral research training appointments in prominent immunology laboratories affiliated with Harvard Medical School and Stanford University School of Medicine. In 2015, she became a Founding Director of Physicians for Informed Consent, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to safeguarding informed consent in vaccination and educating the public on infectious disease and the immune system.”

          • Valerie Finnigan

            You’re gullible if you’re impressed by that and unfazed by the fact that for every one of her ilk, there are hundreds of other immunologists, epidemiologists, and such with more papers in more reputable peer reviewed journals, plus hundreds more health care providers who call her “education” quackery.

          • Ron Roy

            Are you referring to these peer review journals:

            Dr. Arnold Relman, Harvard professor and former editor of the New England
            Journal of Medicine: “The medical profession is being bought by the
            pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also
            in terms of teaching and research. The academic institutions of this country are
            allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I
            think it’s disgraceful.” http://icfda.drugawareness….

            Dr. Marcia Angell, former Editor of NEJM: “It is simply no longer possible to
            believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the
            judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no
            pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two
            decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine…No one knows the
            total amount provided by drug companies to physicians, but I estimate from the
            annual reports of the top 9 U.S.-based drug companies that it comes to tens of
            billions of dollars a year in North America alone.By such means, the
            pharmaceutical industry has gained enormous control over how doctors evaluate
            and use its own products. Its extensive ties to physicians, particularly senior
            faculty at prestigious medical schools, affect the results of research, the way
            medicine is practiced, and even the definition of what constitutes a disease.”
            https://ethicalnag.org/2009

            Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of The Lancet: “The case against
            science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may
            simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects,
            invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with
            an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has
            taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, “poor methods get
            results”…The apparent endemicity of bad research behaviour is alarming. In
            their quest for telling a compelling story, scientists too often sculpt data to
            fit their preferred theory of the world. Or they retrofit hypotheses to fit
            their data. Journal editors deserve their fair share of criticism too. We aid
            and abet the worst behaviours. Our acquiescence to the impact factor fuels an
            unhealthy competition to win a place in a select few journals. Our love of
            “significance” pollutes the literature with many a statistical fairy-tale. We
            reject important confirmations. Journals are not the only miscreants.
            Universities are in a perpetual struggle for money and talent, endpoints that
            foster reductive metrics, such as high-impact publication. National assessment
            procedures, such as the Research Excellence Framework, incentivise bad
            practices.” http://www.thelancet.com/pd

            The Dawn of McScience, Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of the
            Lancet: ”Even scientific journals, supposedly the neutral arbiters of quality by
            virtue of their much-vaunted process of critical peer review, are owned by
            publishers and scientific societies that derive and demand huge earnings from
            advertising by drug companies and from the sale of commercially valuable
            content. The pressure on editors to adopt positions that favor these industries
            is yet another example of the bias that has infiltrated academic exchange. As
            editor of The Lancet I have attended medical conferences at which I have been
            urged to publish more favorable views of the pharmaceutical industry.”

            Nobel Prize winning scientist Sydney Brenner: “And of course all the
            academics say we’ve got to have peer review. But I don’t believe in peer review
            because I think it’s very distorted and as I’ve said, it’s simply a regression
            to the mean. I think peer review is hindering science. In fact, I think it has
            become a completely corrupt system. It’s corrupt in many ways, in that
            scientists and academics have handed over to the editors of these journals the
            ability to make judgment on science and scientists. There are universities in
            America, and I’ve heard from many committees, that we won’t consider people’s
            publications in low impact factor journals…I campaigned against this [culture]
            because I think it is not only bad, it’s corrupt. In other words it puts the
            judgment in the hands of people who really have no reason to exercise judgment
            at all. And that’s all been done in the aid of commerce, because they are now
            giant organisations making money out of it.”

            “An estimated 60% of biomedical research and development in the United States
            is now privately funded, and two thirds of academic institutions have equity
            ties with outside sponsors. Finding senior medical researchers or clinicians
            without financial ties to pharmaceutical companies has become exceedingly
            difficult. Those regarded as “thought leaders” routinely work as paid members of
            drug companies’ advisory boards despite evidence that the practice is part of
            industry’s promotional machinery. According to an article on the “tricks of the
            trade,” published in Pharmaceutical Marketing, the advisory process is one of
            the most powerful means of getting close to people and of influencing them”. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go

          • Valerie Finnigan

            “Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects,
            invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest…”

            Like Andrew Wakefield’s “study”?

    • akell47a

      As solid as her information is, and as glad as I am to see reasonable articles like this one published, I agree that the headline is dramatic to the point of giving a false impression. Sometimes outlets, including the New York Times and Financial Times, etc., will use the most aggravatingly-misleading headlines.

      • Jim Martin

        “As solid as her information is … ” if you live in an alternate reality.

        Meanwhile, here on planet Earth, ten thousand cases of measles and 35 dead children just this year. That’s the risk these activists who pretend to be scientists don’t want to talk about.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a5b43e0198bbf561c44e96c4b4bc424bd9b62c037977174ae6830a62b751e346.jpg

        • akell47a

          Jim, I am sorry that you are living in an alternate reality. I hope you can find a way to escape soon. We will be waiting for you on the ground. You mention 35 dead children as if that would be frightening or compelling. I am not minimizing the loss of those lives (taking what you say on face value), but you do realize that this figure would be NOTHING compared to the losses to life, and to health, and to mental functioning, and to functioning, of the children whose lives are ruined each year by vaccines? You almost make my point for me. Please spare us the silly Straw Man memes, though. This is not Facebook.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Seeing you’re wanting to compare harm caused by vaccines vs harm caused by vaccine preventable diseases – why don’t we look at the actual numbers.

            If one million kids are given the MMR vaccine:
            – 1000 will have a febrile convulsion.
            – 30 will get thrombocytopenia (low platelet count)
            – 10 will have a severe allergic reaction.
            – 1 will develop encephalitis (ADEM).

            If one million kids get measles (in Europe, in the 21st century):
            – 200 will die.
            – 100,000 will be ill enough to need hospitalisation.
            – 90,000 will get otitis media (very painful ear inflammation that can result in deafness).
            – 80,000 will get gastroenteritis.
            – 50,000 will get primary viral or secondary bacterial pneumonia.
            – 5000 will have a febrile convulsion (that’s 5 times more than from vaccines)
            – 1000 will get encephalitis (ADEM or SSPE), 100 of whom will die and 2-300 get brain damage (including deafness, blindness, or learning difficulties).
            – 1000 will get various other problems such as hepatitis, myocarditis, thrombocytopenia, or miscarriage if the diseases is caught in pregnancy.

            Measles is a deadly disease. According to WHO stats, 145 700 people died from measles last year – predominantly children. That’s 400 every day or 16 EVERY HOUR – despite the fact that a safe and effective vaccine has been available for over 50 years. The death rate is because not everyone in the world have access to vaccines – and yet here in the developed world, where life-saving vaccines are easily available, there are people who are actually ***choosing*** to put their kids at risk by ignoring the overwhelming medical and scientific advice, and not vaccinating them.

            And these figures are just for one single vaccine preventable disease. Pertussis killed 58,700 in 2015 (the last year data is available for). Hib killed 371,000. Diphtheria killed 7,321. Over 100 000 babies a year are born with Congenital Rubella Syndrome every year, because their mothers caught German Measles in pregnancy. I could continue. Can you provide any evidence (by evidence I mean data from a reputable public health body or from a peer-reviewed scientific paper, NOT some anti-vaccine echo chamber website) to support your claim that vaccines kill or seriously harm more than these numbers?

        • think4urs11

          https://globalelite.tv/2014/02/21/ceo-turned-whistleblower-exposes-big-pharma-corruption/

          Maybe you should listen to an ex-CEO by the name of Dr. John Rengen Virapen of one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world: Eli Lilly & Co.

          He has stated HIMSELF that vaccines don’t work and what they eventually do is creating new customers. So if you give your child meds that cause a certain type of other illness, they already have the pill for it. They had for example created a neurolepticum that was designed to treat schizophrenia, but they weren’t happy with the sales, so the pushed for it’s use on old people, to put them to sleep at night so the caregivers don’t have too much hassle. Turns out, there was a big side-effect they had kept under the table: it caused diabetes. Do you know who the biggest producer of insulin in the world actually is?
          Eli Lilly & Co. that very same company that sold the neurolepticum in the first place.
          They KNEW it before they sold it!

          They had to pay a 1.4 BILLION $ FINE for a SINGLE product!
          This was the biggest lawsuit ever in the history of the U.S. but it wasn’t widely reported, if at all.
          Why? Because they finance your politics and media and give them great jobs after their careers are over. Lobbyism is the most dangerous form of corruption.

          They are NOT interested in your health. You are a gullible customer, whose government has been bribed via lobbyist and been forced to put poisons into your body at a young age. Without consent this makes it rape. Especially if you know that many papers are frauds and their studies are set up in a way that determines its outcome in the beginning. Negative findings mostly don’t get published at all!

          There is for example a huge crisis at the moment with the peer review process and especially climate research.
          Dr. Michael Mann is currently held in contempt for withholding scientific evidence. HE is the hockey stick man on whose data everybody has based their CO2 climate models. He and his research is a fraud.
          https://needtoknow.news/2017/07/michael-mann-creator-hockey-stick-climate-graph-held-contempt-court-withholding-scientific-evidence/

          • Cardinal Fang

            Sorry think4urs11, I’m waiting for you to produce actual evidence that vaccines don’t work, as opposed to your current “this guy says so”.

          • Ron Roy

            You’re 100% right they work. They work at producing new customers / patients for the MEDICAL MAFIA:http://www.whale.to/c/12419111_10153396083802747_4873306128855806098_o.jpg

          • Cardinal Fang

            So still no evidence then…

            Might I suggest you start here:
            – Demicheli V et., Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012 Feb 15;2. A systematic metanalysis of 54 difference scientific studies using a variety of methodologies and involving 14.7 million children from around the world (BTW Cochrane metanalyses are considered the gold standard of evidence in medicine because they look at the ENTIRETY of the evidence). Shows no association between MMR and MMR and autism or a range of other conditions (asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections).

            Perhaps you might care to post your evidence for your claim – evidence of course being proper peer reviewed journal paper, not pretty memes or anti-vaxx echo chamber websites.

          • Jim Martin

            You gotta wonder what kind of idiot actually believes the measles vaccine causes children to die from malnutrition tho.

            I mean, that takes Olympic-caliber mental gymnastics.

          • Ron Roy

            ”The chief reason you are reading this article is the appearance of Ebola
            virus in the United States. Ebola is one of a number of hemorrhagic fever
            viruses, and the most virulent. Hemorrhagic means that one of the symptoms is
            “capillary fragility, which translates to easy bleeding.” (P. 105) The skin
            bleeds around the hair follicles. This is the same symptom of easy bleeding seen
            in scurvy. Levy finds that consistent with his theory that viral infections
            deplete the body’s vitamin C suddenly and speedily, so that an infectious
            disease is actually causing vitamin C deficiency or scurvy. “[T]he virus so
            rapidly and totally metabolizes and consumes all available vitamin C in the
            bodies of the victims that an advanced stage of scurvy is literally produced
            after only a few days of the disease . . . When the Vitamin C stores are rapidly
            depleted by large infecting doses of an aggressivevirus, the immune system gets
            similarly depleted and compromised.” (p. 105-106).

          • Jonathan Graham

            Uh no. See the evidence – the actual biological evidence not people like Levy who just make stuff up.- points to a lack of ascorbic acid inhibiting the production of a number of t products in your body and Ebola is actually forcing your body to create clotting factor and exhausting it’s supply.

            Not to mention Levy’s theory “Ebola consumes vitamin C” is so facile that he doesn’t think to mention what Ebola actually turns vitamin C into, nor does he take steps to validate it by putting the virus in a controlled environment and examine the levels of the waste product there and then matching them in infected humans.

            His theory also can’t explain why hemorrhaging doesn’t always happen with Ebola (in the most recent outbreak it was somewhat rare) and yet will always eventually happen with scurvy.

            As usual the people you dig up have similar messiah complexes to your own. You all tend to think that that: Thor just plants the truth in your head and you know it’s the truth and therefore no other validation is necessary.

            Simple minds and all.

          • Ron Roy

            Johnny YOU’RE the EXPERT at making things up. Levy, Kalokerinos, Pauling, Dettman, Stone etc. are the experts when it comes to vitamin C:http://whale.to/c/vitcdrlevy.jpg

            http://whale.to/m/fredklennervitc.gif

            http://whale.to/a/image/stone.jpg

          • ILoveJellybeans

            That is a random mix of diseases that are curable, preventable and reversible. A mixture of short term self limiting diseases, chronic ones and even one that has killed all but five of people who have ever caught it.
            .
            If someone claims that a substance can cure anything from the common cold to AIDS and rabies, it most likely does not.
            .
            You know what cured or prevented these diseases, or at least made sure the people who get it didn’t die? Modern medicine.
            .
            Vaccines reduced the numbers of a lot of these, so less people can die of them. Indirectly, they also reduced the numbers of viral encephalitis, which is a complication of a lot of vaccine preventable diseases, such as measles. Also apparently the vaccine for TB also is somewhat effective against leprosy, which is an interesting fact I found out recently. Clean water and sanitation also helped control the spread of some of these diseases. The equipment in the ICU can also keep people alive if they catch any of these and get the severe complications (or catch it in general, but very rarely, with rabies)
            .
            Oranges are good for you, but they wont cure AIDS, and are you really willing to take your chances by NOT getting a shot if you are bitten by a rabid animal. Five people survived that, and an induced coma isn’t very fun.

          • Ben

            Never listen to Jonathan “Shartquaffle” Graham.

          • Ron Roy

            Idiot you have that backwards ( no surprise there ). The vaccine didn’t cause the people to be malnourished but it did lower the vitamin C levels of those who were which caused them to suffer from a myriad of health problems and death.

          • Ron Roy

            Pediatr Neurol. 2003
            Apr;28(4):292-4.

            Elevated levels of measles antibodies in children with autism.

            Singh
            VK1, Jensen
            RL.

            Author information

            Abstract

            ”Virus-induced autoimmunity may play a causal role in autism. To
            examine the etiologic link of viruses in this brain disorder, we conducted a
            serologic study of measles virus, mumps virus, and rubella virus. Viral
            antibodies were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay in the serum of
            autistic children, normal children, and siblings of autistic children. The level
            of measles antibody, but not mumps or rubella antibodies, was significantly
            higher in autistic children as compared with normal children (P = 0.003) or
            siblings of autistic children (P <or= 0.0001). Furthermore, immunoblotting of
            measles vaccine virus revealed that the antibody was directed against a protein
            of approximately 74 kd molecular weight. The antibody to this antigen was found
            in 83% of autistic children but not in normal children or siblings of autistic
            children. Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus,
            which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an
            abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus
            reactivation''.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Isn’t it a pity therefore that Singh’s claims are flawed, unreproducible and dubious.

            A 2006 review of literature on vaccines and autism found that Singh’s results “have been called into question due to issues of cross-contamination, as well as the use of unsubstantiated and un-validated biochemical techniques” (Doja and Roberts W, Can J Neurol Sci. 2006 Nov;33(4):341-6) and a number of other studies have failed to find a difference in immune response to the measles virus between autistic and neurotypical children

            (for example
            – Libbey et al Journal of NeuroVirology, May 2007, Volume 13, Issue 3, pp 252–259.
            – Baird et al, Archives of Disease in Childhood. 93 (10): 832–837
            – D’Souza et al. Pediatrics. 118 (4): 1664–1675
            – Gentile et al In Vivo. 2013 May-Jun;27(3):377-82.

            Mary Ramsay of the UK’s Health Protection Agency (now Public Health England) wrote that the evidence for the “specific” MMR-type antibody Singh claims to have detected was “not credible” whilst Paul Offit (writing in his book “Autism’s False Prophets”) said that “…a closer look at Singh’s science revealed two critical flaws: children with autism didn’t have evidence of nerve cell damage, and, according to measles experts, the test that Singh had used to detect measles antibodies didn’t actually detect them”. Dr Liz Miller, head of the immunisation division of the Public Health Laboratory Service, said of that paper “There is no data in this paper that implicates MMR vaccine as a cause of autism nor that challenges the robust body of evidence on the safety of the vaccine”. In a statement, the PHLS added: “This claim by the authors that they have identified abnormal measles-mumps-rubella antibodies in autistic children is not substantiated by the data in the paper… No abnormal virus-specific antibodies have been demonstrated… The data that they show as evidence that this component is one particular antigen of the measles virus is not credible.”

            And BTW – it is really bad scientific practice to cherry pick individual papers as evidence, particularly if the only reason you’re cherry picking them is to try and prove some pre-existing belief. Science is about the ENTIRETY of evidence – and that evidence, overwhelmingly, says that there is no link between vaccines and autism or a range of other diseases

          • Cardinal Fang

            For example – this is a TINY snapshot of the literally hundreds of papers that show there’s no link between vaccines and autism

            – Demicheli V et., Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2012 Feb 15;2. A systematic metanalysis of 54 different scientific studies using a variety of methodologies and involving 14.7 million children from around the world (BTW Cochrane metanalyses are considered the gold standard of evidence in medicine). Shows no association between MMR and MMR and autism or a range of other conditions (asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn’s disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections).
            – Taylor et al. Lancet.1999 Jun 12;353(9169):2026-9. In which the vaccination records of 498 autistic children were examined, and which found no difference in age at diagnosis between the cases vaccinated and those never vaccinated.
            – Makela A et al. Pediatrics. 2002; 110:957-63. Looking at over 500, 000 children in Finland, and finding no difference in autism rates between those who have been vaccinated and those who have not.
            – Madsen KM et al. New England Journal of Medicine. 2002; 347(19):1477-82. Comparing over 500, 000 children in Denmark and finding no difference in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated
            children.
            – DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66. Comparing vaccination rates in children with autism and children without autism and finding no difference.
            – Honda H et al, Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 2005 June; 46(6):572-9. Showing that autism
            rates in Japan INCREASED after the replacement of MMR with single vaccines.
            – Uchiyama T et al. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 2007; 37(2):210-7. Showing no significant difference was found in the incidence of autistic spectrum disorders between MMR-vaccinated children and unvaccinated children.
            – Hviid et al., Journal of the American Medical Association, 2003; 290(13):1763-6. Study of 467,000 children born in Denmark showing the risk of autism was not significantly different between children who received thimerosal-containing vaccines and children who received a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine.

            I’m not posting this in the hope Ron that you’ll change your mind – it appears you are too wedded to your belief that vaccines are harmful to be able to do that, but in the hopes that others, looking for accurate information, will realise that that study by Singh does not reflect the current evidence regarding vaccines

          • Ron Roy
          • Cardinal Fang

            Relying on “this guy says so” rather than actual evidence again I see. Some guy saying something in an internet meme does not constitute evidence.

            You are aware that Eisenstein was a vehement anti-vaxxer who promoted Lupron “therapies” for autistic kids (Lupron is used for chemical castrations BTW). He was on the losing side of one of the largest U.S. jury verdicts ($30 million) ever awarded to the family of a newborn in a wrongful-death suit. Indeed he had a string of malpractice suits against him relating to birth injuries and deaths. He had no expertise in any subject related to autism (e.g. paediatrics, endocrinology, neurology or psychiatry) and has accused vaccine proponents of “doing something as heinous as the Nazis”. More about Eisenstein here: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/22/why-not-just-castrate-them-part-3-the-ei/

          • Jim Martin

            Holy mother. Mayer Eisenstein

            FLASHBACK 2009:

            “In court records dating back three decades, the families of dead and brain-damaged children repeatedly alleged that doctors who work for Eisenstein made harmful mistakes — sometimes the same error more than once. … Despite this history, Eisenstein has cultivated a devoted following.”
            http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22-story.html

          • Ben

            Well, Lupron does have biological justification (I’m not saying it’s right.)

            Can you explain the sex differential in autism? Do you think this is a sociological problem or a biological one? Or is it both?

            Every year there are much worse crimes in medicine that what Eisenstein did. Most cancer drugs are delivered for profit, not for efficacy. If efficacy were the basis for modern mainstream chemotherapy, they would use methylglyoxal or 2-bromopyruvate.

            There are drugs with cancer reversal rates approaching 100%.

            Also, they tell their patients to keep eating whatever. They give the impression that it makes no difference. This is not true. Some people have reversed cancer simply by eating raw food.

            But it’s not an official crime when everyone else does it. The malpractice laws are constructed that way. As long as you stick to the same criminal and abusive practices as your colleagues you will be largely immune from malpractice.

            Way to use the term “chemical castration” instead of “gonadotropin-releasing hormone inhibitor.” It sounds so much worse that way. Did you know that it was on the WHO’s list of essential medicines and is regularly given to people with prostate cancer?

          • Cardinal Fang

            I use the term “chemical castration” deliberately, because Lupron is used to chemically castrate sex offenders.
            It is the only other example for where that drug is administered for a reason other than a valid evidence-based medical reason.
            There’s no evidence to support the use of Lupron or any other hormone inhibitor as a treatment for autism

          • Ben

            Then explain why boys have a higher autism rate than girls. If you cannot do that, I don’t think you can readily discount the hormonal hypothesis.

            The term ‘chemical castration’ is unduly sensationalist; a term you would see in The National Equirer or The Skeptical Raptor. It would be like using the term “chemical lobotomy” to describe Prozac™, or the term “virtual lobotomy” to describe your comments. Although there is some truth to these analogies, they are simply not the most precise and factual terms to describe such things.

            Do you think that pharmacists at Phizer use the term? Do you think they synthesize “chemical castration agents”? Or is it just a string of words you use to denigrate something?

          • Well_Actualy

            Hey numbnuts – it doesn’t work like that. Unless you can prove that 1. Lupron is a valid evidence based treatment for autism, and 2. that Lupron ISN’T used for chemical castration, then your dumbass criticism isn’t valid.

            You can’t because 1. There it isn’t – it’s a quack therapy; and 2. Lupron IS used for chemical castration.

            It’s a bogus treatment because it’s based on 2 lies – that autism is caused by mercury (it’s not) combined with the bogus idea that mercury binds to testosterone and therefore lowering testosterone levels reduces mercury levels to cure autism. It’s a bull quack therapy promoted by a guy who lost his medical license because he was injecting kids with this stuff.

            Don’t try to divert and try that stupid proof-reversal gambit by going
            “oh well you tell me why boys have higher rates of autism than girls” to try and distract people from the fact that @Cardinal Fang is
            right and that once again you’re talking bull.

          • Ben

            It’s a bogus treatment because it’s based on 2 lies – that autism is caused by mercury (it’s not)…

            Mercury causes mercury poisoning, and there are safe and effective ways of chelating mercury.

            …combined with the bogus idea that mercury binds to testosterone and therefore lowering testosterone levels reduces mercury levels to cure autism.What? You’re going to have to cite the doctors themselves saying that. Nobody thinks that “mercury binds to testosterone.” That came straight out of your imagination.

          • Well_Actualy

            The inventors of Lupron “therapy” for autism, the quack combo of Mark and David Geier use precisely that rational for giving chemical castration drugs to kids. The mercury is supposed to bind mercury so it can’t be chelated, and according to them you can cure autism by chelating mercury out of autistic kids. See: Geier DA. Geier MR. A clinical trial of combined anti-androgen and anti-heavy metal therapy in autistic disorders. [Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov’t] Neuroendocrinology Letters. 27(6):833-8, 2006 Dec
            And they repeat that claim in their patent application for their quack therapy: https://www.google.com/patents/US20070254314

            Granted that the Maryland State Board of Physicians decided that Mark Geier’s therapies pose such a threat to children with autism that he was stripped of his medical license, so he can’t be called a doctor any more.

            Are you going to admit that your fellow anti-vaxxers Mark and David Geier are quacks promoting a bogus idea that mercury causes autism?

          • Ben

            The mercury is supposed to bind mercury so it can’t be chelated…

            So mercury binds itself? Interesting theory.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Unvaccinated children can have autism though.
            .
            The problem with things like this, is that autism can go undetected, especially if the kid can talk. It isn’t outright obvious sometimes, especially to people who don’t know much about it, but just because someone doesn’t have an official diagnosis, does not mean they don’t have autism. If they do, they do, whether its diagnosed or not, or whether they even know it or not.
            .
            Its impossible to compare the rate of autism in a country such as the UK or America as a whole, against other cultures (or subcultures, or communities) where mainstream medicine is not utilised (or not available).
            .
            You see, although correlation does not equal causation, sometimes there are hidden variables that are influencing both.
            .
            Does ice cream cause sunburn? They go up at the same time. During the time of the year ice cream sales are low, nobody gets sunburn. During the time of the year where ice cream sales are the highest, the rate of sunburn is also the highest.
            .
            No. Ice cream sales rates and sunburn both go up at the same time, because both are things that happen when it is sunny.
            .
            Do vaccines cause autism? No. Studies have shown that the two are unconnected.
            .
            But the rate of autism diagnoses and the amount of vaccinations both went up….but actually, both are a sign of the medical community getting better at diagnosing, treating and preventing conditions. Medical science now knows that autism is a spectrum, and is able to diagnose more people (including adults who missed a diagnosis when they were children), and medical science also knows how to create vaccines to prevent diseases.
            .
            But (community) has less autism, and they never get vaccinated…but actually, diagnoses and vaccinations are both things that happen when people utilise medical care, and also when they trust mainstream medicine. Mainstream medicine diagnoses autism, and they also give vaccines. People who don’t trust mainstream medicine are more likely to brush off a doctor’s concerns, or just plain not take their child to the doctor (but instead use Dr Internet, or take them to a chiropractor or naturopath, who cannot diagnose autism), so a child who is autistic (unless it is very obvious, like they don’t talk), will not receive an official diagnosis. Theyre also unlikely to get their kid vaccinated.
            .
            Same for any other culture where mainstream medical care is underutilised or unavailable, whether voluntary (knowing medical care is available, but choosing not to use it), or involuntary (medical care is not available, but they would use it if it was).

          • Ron Roy

            Gee I wonder who paid for all those studies you’re cherry picking:There are also insiders within the most prestigious medical journals decrying the influence & corruption between Big Pharma and the medical profession/academic institutions:

            Dr. Arnold Relman, Harvard professor and former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine: “The medical profession is being bought by the pharmaceutical industry, not only in terms of the practice of medicine, but also in terms of teaching and research. The academic institutions of this country are allowing themselves to be the paid agents of the pharmaceutical industry. I think it’s disgraceful.” http://icfda.drugawareness….

            Dr. Marcia Angell, former Editor of NEJM: “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine…No one knows the total amount provided by drug companies to physicians, but I estimate from the annual reports of the top 9 U.S.-based drug companies that it comes to tens of billions of dollars a year in North America alone.By such means, the pharmaceutical industry has gained enormous control over how doctors evaluate and use its own products. Its extensive ties to physicians, particularly senior faculty at prestigious medical schools, affect the results of research, the way medicine is practiced, and even the definition of what constitutes a disease.” https://ethicalnag.org/2009

            Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of The Lancet: “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, “poor methods get results”…The apparent endemicity of bad research behaviour is alarming. In their quest for telling a compelling story, scientists too often sculpt data to fit their preferred theory of the world. Or they retrofit hypotheses to fit their data. Journal editors deserve their fair share of criticism too. We aid and abet the worst behaviours. Our acquiescence to the impact factor fuels an unhealthy competition to win a place in a select few journals. Our love of “significance” pollutes the literature with many a statistical fairy-tale. We reject important confirmations. Journals are not the only miscreants. Universities are in a perpetual struggle for money and talent, endpoints that foster reductive metrics, such as high-impact publication. National assessment procedures, such as the Research Excellence Framework, incentivise bad practices.” http://www.thelancet.com/pd

            The Dawn of McScience, Dr. Richard Horton, former Editor in Chief of the Lancet: ”Even scientific journals, supposedly the neutral arbiters of quality by virtue of their much-vaunted process of critical peer review, are owned by publishers and scientific societies that derive and demand huge earnings from advertising by drug companies and from the sale of commercially valuable content. The pressure on editors to adopt positions that favor these industries is yet another example of the bias that has infiltrated academic exchange. As editor of The Lancet I have attended medical conferences at which I have been urged to publish more favorable views of the pharmaceutical industry.”

            Nobel Prize winning scientist Sydney Brenner: “And of course all the academics say we’ve got to have peer review. But I don’t believe in peer review because I think it’s very distorted and as I’ve said, it’s simply a regression to the mean. I think peer review is hindering science. In fact, I think it has become a completely corrupt system. It’s corrupt in many ways, in that scientists and academics have handed over to the editors of these journals the ability to make judgment on science and scientists. There are universities in America, and I’ve heard from many committees, that we won’t consider people’s publications in low impact factor journals…I campaigned against this [culture] because I think it is not only bad, it’s corrupt. In other words it puts the judgment in the hands of people who really have no reason to exercise judgment at all. And that’s all been done in the aid of commerce, because they are now giant organisations making money out of it.”

            “An estimated 60% of biomedical research and development in the United States is now privately funded, and two thirds of academic institutions have equity ties with outside sponsors. Finding senior medical researchers or clinicians without financial ties to pharmaceutical companies has become exceedingly difficult. Those regarded as “thought leaders” routinely work as paid members of drug companies’ advisory boards despite evidence that the practice is part of industry’s promotional machinery. According to an article on the “tricks of the trade,” published in Pharmaceutical Marketing, the advisory process is one of the most powerful means of getting close to people and of influencing them”. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go
            I’d rather believe those people who have no ties to the pharmaceutical industry:http://www.whale.to/c/measlesvaxracket666.jpg

          • Cardinal Fang

            Here’s the thing – internet memes can be misleading or untrue.

            1. Lawyers lists means nothing, save that there are ambulance chasers out there who will try and sue anyone for anything. Evidence has failed to link MMR with pretty much all of those diseases, the exceptions being encephalitis and Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), both of which are very rare but known side effects (encephalitis will occur about 1 every million doses; ITP at a rate of around 2 – 4 cases per 100,000 doses – they tend to be mild, temporary cases). However encephlitis is also a complication of measles infections, that occur at much higher rate – approx 1 in every 1000 infections, with every 1 in 100 of those dying. ITP occurs following a lot of natural infections, including chicken pox, mumps, rubella, measles, H, pylori, and a number of others. Epidemiological data shows that ITP occurs at a rate of approx 33 per 100,000 cases (so about 10 times higher than through vaccination). With rubella infections it can climb as high as 1 per 3000 cases. So looking at the risks of both the vaccine and natural infection, the chances of thrombocytopenic purpura are REDUCED with vaccination

            2. Vaccine inserts are not proof that the vaccine actually causes any of those conditions. Reference to inserts comes up so often on anti-vaxx sites that it’s got it’s own logical fallacy: the argument by vaccine package. It all hinges on FDA guidance. The FDA states that the section should include events “for which there is some basis to believe there is a causal relationship between the drug and the occurrence of the adverse event”. The key word is “believe”, instead of based on evidence. These are basically a laundry list of observed events that probably have nothing to do with the vaccine, but have been claimed by someone as caused by it. They get put there so that the pharmaceutical company is covered in case of a lawsuit. Things that are supported by actual serious and robust evidence are put in the Warnings section. The Adverse Reactions section so beloved of anti-vaxxers is the dumping ground for every other unsupported claim as a butt-covering exercise. Anti-vaxxers always seem to miss out the FDA guidance that also goes with the laundry list which reads “The following adverse reactions have been identified during postapproval
            use of [X]. Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, IT IS NOT ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO RELIABLY ESTIMATE THEIR FREQUENCY OR ESTABLISH A CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP”. The packets themselves state that there is no evidence of a causal relationship. Guess that bit of the list is just a bit inconvenient huh?
            (And I’m struck by the irony of you posting a meme containing reference to vaccine inserts when you’ve just condemned all of the medical sector).

            3. If using package inserts in like a laundry list, then using VAERS is the equivalent of dumpster diving. VAERS is a database that anyone can report anything to. It’s not vetted. You don’t have to prove causation, or be accurate. Reports can be (and often are) as vague as “a friend of a friend heard that someone had this reaction”. As such, a report in VAERS does not prove that any adverse event was actually caused by vaccines. In fact, it doesn’t even prove that any reported adverse event actually even existed. One of the more notorious examples of how any report makes it into VAERS was Dr. James Laidler’s report that the influenza vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk. He inspired Kevin Leitch from Left Brain Right Brain to report a similar Wonder Woman adverse event.

            VAERS has it’s place. It gives regulators a way to monitor for possible vaccine side effects. If they notice an increase in reporting of something, they go back and do proper epidemiological studies to see if there is actually something going on. RotaShield, a rotovirus vaccine was pulled because of an increase in VAERS reports about intussusception, which were then confirmed by proper studies.

            But just because VAERS say that something was caused by a vaccine, doesn’t make it true.

            And just because you’ve posted an internet meme, doesn’t make it true either

          • Cardinal Fang

            With regards to those quotes – it’s absolutely true that there are real issues with regards to research. And that includes evidence getting skewed or not published because it doesn’t give the “right result”. Trial suppression is a real problem. As is outcome switching (reporting on a different outcome than the one originally planned because the results look better).

            If you’re genuinely interested in the issue, and how to make it better (as opposed to just using it as a convenient stick), I would recommend looking up the All Trials campaign, which is an international campaign for better trial transparency in medical research. They’re at http://www.alltrials.net/. Meanwhile the Centre for Evidence Based Medicine’s COMPare study is tracking switched outcomes and engaging in real-time correction with journals to highlight this. They’re here if you’re interested: http://compare-trials.org/

            However, even with the known problems of the evidence record, science remains the best way of finding out accurate information. What would you suggest as an alternative? “Because I said so”? “I shook a bag of bones and it said…”? We should be striving to sort these problems, not dismiss the whole of evidence based medicine

          • Jonathan Graham

            Already refuted Ron. There is no rational reason for insurance companies to spend money to encourage vaccination if this is creating more procedures which is costing them more money.

            It also means that there’s a market – giving preferential rates to non-vaccinated – worth hundreds of millions of dollars that insurance companies are putting no effort at all to collecting out. They’re acting like that market isn’t even there.

            Who else is acting like this market doesn’t even exist? Every business. Including those run by people who are critical of vaccines.

            This is one of the reasons that make everything you and your lot sound mostly like posturing. I could come up with a good half-dozen activities which are money making, ethical and cause advancing for people who are critical of vaccines. What do we actually see? Snake-oil salesmen feeding off the ignorance and vulnerability of people like yourself.

          • Scott Michael

            Jonathan – It is difficult for people to understand this but actually insurance companies do not care about cost. Certainly they may care in individual instances, but in aggregate they are AGNOSTIC since they just raise premiums to offset rising costs. Their competitors also have to raise premiums to offset rising costs, so there is no competitive disadvantage. The only group that suffers from rising costs are the people paying the premiums. Your point about there being a market giving unvaccinated kids preferential rates is a good one however 1) there is no science backing the claim that unvaxxed are healthier than vaxxed because the study has never been done and 2) the vax rates are still very high so even if somebody wanted to serve that market, it is very small.

          • Jonathan Graham

            but in aggregate they are AGNOSTIC since they just raise premiums to offset rising costs.

            Insurance works on the principle of pooled risk. That your fees represent something within a constant multiple of the median cost. So the expectation of your insurer is that most people will cost more in one area and less in others. A few will cost a lot and a few will cost them virtually nothing. When costs increase but there is no common cause then premiums increase but I would assume that only people who have never read an insurance policy or dealt with an insurance company would claim that the same principle holds when there is a common cause.

            The number of provisos, exceptions and limitations in coverage are all because someone has looked at the billions of patient records and seen that procedure X, habit Y is incurring a significant cost. Caps on service Z are because service Z can easily get out of control. All of these restrictions come from aggregate analysis of the risk pool.

            Their competitors also have to raise premiums to offset rising costs, so there is no competitive disadvantage

            The context was that at any one time these companies could either provide discounted (but immensely profitable) insurance for those who don’t vaccinate or reduce their vaccination or simply stop giving money to doctors to encourage vaccination. If vaccines are, as Ron Roy was claiming at least hundred million a year. Then the first person who starts doing this disadvantages all the others.

            there is no science backing the claim that unvaxxed are healthier than vaxxed because the study has never been done

            Kaiser Permanente has an immense amount of information on every one of their 11 million subscribers. If there was dose/response relationship between vaccination and some negative outcome they would know. No study needs to be done here.

            the vax rates are still very high so even if somebody wanted to serve that market, it is very small.

            Not if the damage is as high as is being claimed. Now if there’s almost no negative effects….

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            – Kaiser Permanente has an immense amount of information on every one of
            their 11 million subscribers. If there was dose/response relationship
            between vaccination and some negative outcome they would know. No study
            needs to be done here.

            And what would they do if someone identified a relationship? What you conveniently ignore is that the current political climate prevents anyone from entering this space and exploiting it.

            Can you imagine the backlash if an insurance company came out and said they were offering lower rates to unvaxxed kids? They would get crucified by the media and pharm propagandists as a menace to public health. I can hear the attacks already – “those greedy insurance companies are endangering public health in the name of profit!” Gimme a break.

            To say that no study needs to be done because Kaiser “has the data” is total bullshit. If for no other reason, the study needs to be done IN THE INTEREST OF PUBLIC HEALTH. If there is no discernible difference between the health of the two groups then let’s prove it already so the anti-vaxx brigade can be proven wrong once and for all.

          • Jonathan Graham

            What you conveniently ignore is

            Uh I’ll just point out that if this “backlash’ argument of yours was really such a big deal which you yourself weren’t ignoring (conveniently). You might have led with that instead of waiting until all your other arguments got blown out of the water.

            Can you imagine the backlash if an insurance company came out and said they were offering lower rates to unvaxxed kids?

            Well a) You are trying to counter an actual argument based on Ron Roy’s nutcase ideas with an imaginary one. b) The insurance company that decided to do this – in Ron Roy’s world – would have pretty much every piece of ammunition available to argue that what they were doing was entirely in the public’s best interest. c) I don’t know what it’s like on Mars or wherever you grew up but here on earth people already consider insurance companies to be something of the bottom feeder variety.

            To say that no study needs to be done because Kaiser “has the data” is total bullshit. If for no other reason, the study needs to be done IN THE INTEREST OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

            If you hitchhike a few miles back you might just see the exit where you missed the point. We are talking about my argument where KP (or whomever) isl offering lower rates to the unvaccinated. The only thing really matters to this argument, in terms of what research needs to be done is if it’s possible that KP can actually know this. Clearly they do one way or the other (and judging by the fact that insurance companies compensate doctors for a number of activities including getting their patients vaccinated it’s abundantly clear that they know that the health outcomes are better).

            If there is no discernible difference between the health of the two groups then let’s prove it already so the anti-vaxx brigade can be proven wrong once and for all.

            I’ll point out that what you’re describing isn’t so much public heath but an adjunct to it. The extant research already tells that story rather well to the vast majority of researchers in the field. What you are really describing is research which communicates a public health message to people.

            So as you’ve already pointed out the extreme vast majority of North American society already accepts the the idea that vaccines are not risk free but sufficiently safe. How much more money do we spend on research that will convince those who are left? One million? Ten million? Five hundred million?

            Considering that the average person who is critical of vaccines appears unable to define even the simplest parameters required for a study designed to convince them would certainly have me waiting before I commit any budget. I mean can any of those people state clearly what level of risk for a list of conditions they would consider acceptable before they say: “Oh, ok no problem. We were all wrong?”

            Not to mention that there are entire organizations like Age of Autism which exist primarily to promote ideas about vaccine damage. How much do we spend on convincing them?

          • Proponent

            And you are here posting as Ben as well, Travis; aka Skepticalofskeptics; aka.. aka..?

            That’s pretty desperate..

          • kfunk937

            Fwiw, Pro, I disagree. Among other things, there is more dissimilarity than similarity in psychology, political leanings, argumentation and so on, as revealed by language use alone. Their tells don’t overlap (although theoretically that could be deliberate). That they hold similar positions on teh ebil vaccines is IMHO coincidental.

          • Ben

            That they hold similar positions…

            And that position is that? Reverse cowgirl?

          • Proponent

            You may be correct.

            … …

            My thoughts are based on Travis’ fixation on aluminum.. whenever science actually raises it’s head and however distorted it is.. in his post/comments. A shared flawed perspective by both.

            And then, that of his penchant for changing usernames on the fly.

            … …

            Adding in..

            I felt like poking the junkyard dog.

            (*points below at said-same pulling on this choker chain*)

          • Jonathan Graham

            Since we’re jawing about Travis. I don’t know about you but I find his rhetoric breaks down into about three modalities:

            i) Google and pose as an expert thing. Mostly it’s stringing together phrases and pretending he understands what they mean.

            ii) Make an unsupported claim while bulling the person. i.e. “Don’t you know how simple and fundamental it is that tau proteins talk to me through coded messages in commercials. Moron!”. Interestingly I had Michele of Zogby and co. pull this kind of technique on me the other day. I really don’t get what they’re (always) upset about.

            iii) Straight up abuse.

          • Ben

            Absolutely not Your Gingerness. I know a great deal more about Alzheimer’s than you do. Read a few dozen scientific articles on it and then we can talk.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Never saw your nick before. I’m talking about Travis J. Schwochert who lived (or lives) at 239 S Church St in Endeavor WI. Are you claiming you are that person?

          • Ben

            Why are you posting peoples addresses, psychoboy?

          • Jonathan Graham

            So that isn’t you?

          • Ron Roy

            And Johnny panicked when I threatened to expose his personal info. lol

          • Jonathan Graham

            So wait…now you’re claiming that this Ben person is Travis J. Schwochert who lived (or lives) in Endeavor WI?

          • Ben

            “Don’t you know how simple and fundamental it is that tau proteins talk to me through coded messages in commercials. Moron!”.

            I never said that Jon. What an absolutely stupid thing to say.

            Did you wear your spinny propeller-hat when you typed that? And did you say, “wooo!”

          • Ben

            Mostly it’s stringing together phrases and pretending he understands what they mean.

            So when I type something, it’s merely “stringing together phrases”?

            If that is true, what does that make your painfully-ignorant comments? Merely weaving together clichés? Braiding Hellen Keller?

          • Ben

            That’s pretty desperate..

            No, that’s Karla. Ask her about the Baltimore Slidewhistle.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            And how would that benefit the government of the UK, who also vaccinate, but all healthcare is from taxpayer money and free at the point of use?
            .
            More chronic conditions means more money the NHS needs to spend managing them.
            .
            The more people who are considered too sick to work, means the more money the government must spend on benefits.
            .
            If there was a cheaper way to cure or manage illnesses, we would use it. If there was a way to permanently cure chronic conditions, we would use it.
            .
            The government does not like spending money on healthcare.
            The government does not like spending money on disabled people.
            The government likes spending money on giving themselves a higher wage, and on guns and bombs.
            They would very much like it if the amount of money needed for the NHS was lower, like if they switched to cheaper alternative medicine and stopped giving drugs that make people sicker…..so why are they not doing it? America doesn’t rule the world, you know.
            .
            Also spending less money on chronic conditions means that the budget for healthcare could stretch further, which means that the hospitals can pay their staff more money, which benefits them too. There will always be a need for healthcare, even if we switched to alternative medicine.
            .
            This whole Big Pharma thing doesn’t make sense if you don’t live in America.

          • AutismDadd

            Prove they do and how they do it

          • Kzee Herz

            Do your own research, there’s plenty of it. Stop burying your head in the sand and wake up.

          • Cardinal Fang

            You realise Kzee that when you tell people to do their own research, it across like you admitting that you can’t meet your burden of proof, so you want others to do it for you.

          • Jonathan Graham

            He has stated HIMSELF that vaccines don’t work and what they eventually do is creating new customers.

            Well if he is claiming that antigens don’t create antibodies which in turn don’t promote disease resistance. Then his opinion isn’t worth anything.

        • Ron Roy

          The measles vaccine at work creating more patients for the MEDICAL MAFIA:http://www.whale.to/c/12919799_599238256910353_2621804970942552810_n.jpg

          • Cardinal Fang

            Still waiting for actual evidence as opposed to “this guy says so”. Accepting a claim of a person based solely on his or her status, not on the strength of the argument doesn’t prove that what they’re saying is in any way correct. Just because he’s an MD, doesn’t mean he has any expertise in immunology or related subjects.

            (You might also reconsider citing Archie Kalokerinos as a reliable source on vaccinations considering he believed that vaccination schemes have been used to commit genocide among indigenous Australians, was used to spread HIV in Africa, and was being used by the US Government to eliminate “undesirables”, and considered that massive doses of vitamin C could cure lots of diseases.)

          • Jim Martin
          • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

            Another brilliant meme, Jim. But it MUST be against child labor laws to have all those little kids laboring over your concepts.

          • Ron Roy

            The name or title Cardinal suits you well if you’re truly a Cardinal the I can see why you would promote vaccines it seems harming children is part of your nature.

          • Cardinal Fang

            If they have a real argument perhaps you should make it instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks.

            (And BTW if you’d looked up “Cardinal Fang, you’d have found out the source quickly. Just saying)

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc764085e7d116a2970ac428d5bfd0b94b66d4aa55f68ce41e72ecaedd35bb9e.jpg

          • Ron Roy

            The name suits you. The harm through vaccines that you’re promoting is similar to the harm caused to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition.

          • Cardinal Fang

            If you have a real argument perhaps you should make it instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks. Makes it look like you can’t come up with a proper response. Seeing that this is the second ad hominem in a row from you it is apparent that you cannot muster a reply, so it would appear you are conceding the argument – hence why you must fall back to insults rather than information

          • AutismDadd

            They are big on insertions

          • Ron Roy

            This man who has far more knowledge than you do would agree with Archie Kalokerinos:https://www.peakenergy.com/About-Dr-Levy.php

          • Well_Actualy

            Ha ha ha.

            Dumb anti-vaxxer tries to save his dumb appeal to authority with another appeal to authority.

            Just because you can find some quack on the internet who say something, don’t make it true.

          • Ron Roy

            No logical answer I see, Got It!

          • Proponent

            Ron Roy: “This man has far more knowledge than you do would agree with Archie Kalokerinos.. .”

            And what is stated on the page that Ronald P. Roy linked to?

            This..

            “Dr. Levy strongly urges all readers to seek the help of a qualified
            health care practitioner who will discuss the reader’s health directly
            and fully answer all questions in a straightforward and scientific
            fashion.”

            … …

            I am embarrassed for you, Ronald P. Roy. You don’t even read the references you link to.. and when presented with information that your source is bat guano crazy.. what do you do?

            Double down on the crazee.

            “Dr Kalokerinos is the source so approvingly quoted by our commenter
            (above), which rather makes one wonder about his ability to view
            evidence dispassionately and – as far as possible – without being biased
            by his own preconceptions.”

            (Source: BioBlog | “seven signs of bogus science” )

            … …

            Oh and good news!

            Just thought I would share the above with you.

          • shay simmons

            Ron never reads his cites.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Already refuted Ron, Archie not only has never done anything approaching research to validate this claim but he documents his own tendency to just make things up in his own book. I’ve already provided the page numbers.

          • Ron Roy
          • Cardinal Fang

            Again relying on “this guy says so” rather than actual evidence – and considering that that guy thinks that vaccines spread HIV and are used to commit genocide, he’s not even a reliable source in the first place

        • http://stopk9torture.com Suki49

          Wow, that meme looks like it was put together by a 7-year-old! Good job!

        • Scott Michael

          Jim – which of her positions do you disagree with? Can you provide evidence beyond memes and fearmongering?

    • Scott Michael

      Strawman argument. If you disagree with any of her positions, please specify why and provide evidence.

  • Cardinal Fang

    A letter by someone with tenuous credentials trying to make an argument from authority (i.e. “look I’m an immunologist therefore you mush believe me”). It’s a pity that her scientific training didn’t teach her that it’s really bad scientific practice to just cherry pick the information that supports your pre-existing prejudices, and that it’s bad on any level to engage in this level of promoting misleading information. She has a PhD, yet she somehow manages to come up with arguments that anyone with any real knowledge of vaccines or immunology would spot as false.

    I could rebut this nonsense piece by piece, but it’s been done already more thouroughly (and far more politely) that I would do here:
    http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/more-anti-vaccine-pseudoscience/.

    I’m guessing that those who ideologically believe that vaccines are teh ebil will bypass this, or claim that it’s “big pharma” propaganda or some such. But if you’re genuinely interested in the subject, I would commend this rebuttal to you.

    • Dubiuus Anonymus

      Prove your worth by detailing it yourself, otherwise you are just arguing from authority.

      • Rev. Deplorable

        Do your own homework. He gave the url. Lazy?

    • https://gab.ai/StevenKeaton Shortest Straw

      Y’all seem pretty well educated, so maybe you can help me understand: What exactly is the extent of the risk of the unvaccinated to the vaccinated? I’m sure it varies by vaccination and disease, but what are the ranges? What is the range of failure of the vaccination to provide immunity?

      • Cardinal Fang

        Richard Gant at the Skeptoid blog answers the question of why unvaccinated children are a risk very eloquently (and with a Hobbit quote to boot) here: https://skeptoid.com/blog/2017/03/31/are-unvaccinated-children-danger/

        The TL:DR version = the unvaccinated decrease herd immunity, increasing the risk of outbreaks.

        With regards to the vaccinated – no vaccine works 100% of the time. There will always be a few who don’t get full immunity from a vaccine (although normally they still have a partial immunity so they would get a weaker form of the disease). It’s estimated that up to 15% of recipients don’t get full immunity from the first shot, which is why a second booster is normally given, reduce that proportion to less than 1%. That means though that people who have been vaccinated may also be at risk of still catching a vaccine-preventable disease.

        The Oxford Vaccine Group at The University of Oxford have a good explanation of how disease can affect vaccinated populations: http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/disease-vaccinated-populations

        • https://gab.ai/StevenKeaton Shortest Straw

          Thanks. Pretty much what I thought. The risk to the unvaccinated is obvious, at least if herd immunity is not achieved. One percent risk to the vaccinated – it’s something, and efforts should be made to drive the unvaccinated percentage lower … though there is personal choice … though, if I get CPS’d for random shit my kids say, why aren’t vaccine refusers harassed for openly endangering their kids?

        • AutismDadd

          AWK Fang want a cracker?

    • AutismDadd

      Nice bluff. No we insist you rebut it piece by piece.

    • KingofCastletillQueengetshome.

      Your comment re “cherry pick the information that supports your pre-existing prejudices” made me choke. That is exactly what the drug company & government so called researchers have done to justify vaccines, with NO double blind controlled clinical trials with sufficient subjects & controls & significant time frames..

      • Cardinal Fang

        It’s impressive how your comment manages to dismiss almost everyone who has been involved in vaccine research (with your comment about “drug company & government so called researchers”). I’m assuming that blanket dismissal is to make it easier to reject any and all studies with results you don’t like?

        Out of interest, what you consider “sufficient subjects & controls & significant time frames” for a double blind clinical trial? Do you have criteria in mind or is it another way to just dismiss papers that don’t meet your pre-existing prejudices by being able to go “not big enough” or “not long enough” and so on?

        It’s one of those myths often banded about by the anti-vaccine industry that there have been no double blinded placebo-controlled trials of vaccines. Let us be clear to start off with. It is often just not ethical to conduct a double blinded trial, as the study design by definition, would leave a section of children unprotected, and therefore at risk of the disease the vaccine is trying to prevent. In these cases there are plenty of other ways to demonstrate the efficacy of the vaccine through statistics. It’s the same for infant car seats.

        There have never been a controlled randomised double blind study of car seats. It would be unethical to randomise some infants to be left unbelted in cars simply so we can check if more of them will be injured or killed. So how do we know car seats minimise the risk of injury and death of infants? Through statistical methods such as large scale population studies, retrospective cohort studies etc to show that there are fewer deaths and serious injuries if children are restrained properly in cars.

        Double blinded placebo-controlled trials of vaccines for this reason happen less frequently that for other pharmaceutical products. However where it is ethical and safe to do so, they are performed.

        As an example:

        – Paavonen et al. The Lancet. 2007 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17602732)
        – Romanowski et al. The Lancet. 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19962185)
        – Maruyama et al. BMJ. 2010 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20211953)
        – Cutts et al. The Lancet 2005 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15794968)
        – Konno et al. Int J Gynecol Cancer. 2010 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20606533)
        – Moorthy et al. PLoS Med. 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15526058)
        – Lyons et al. Vaccine. 2008 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18448211)
        – Mallory et al. PLoS One. 2010 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21060780)
        – Iwata et al. Hum Vaccin Immunother. 2013 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23732903)
        – Zaman et al. The Lancet. 2010 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20692031)

        But I have no doubt that this list will be dismissed. If this discussion goes anything like others one has with anti-vaxxers it will continue along the lines of:
        Anti-vaxxer: “I’m not satisfied until every vaccine is extensively tested in double blind placebo controlled trials!”
        Me: “But not all of them can be. It would be unethical”
        Anti-vaxxer: “So, you admit they’re never tested!”
        Me: “Yes, they are.”
        Anti-vaxxer: “Well, I want them all tested the way I want and not what the scientists want. Your studies will never be good enough; therefore I reject them all”.

  • Kevin Williams

    Let’s start with the misleading title. “Harvard: Unvaccinated Children Pose Zero Risk” Clear this isn’t an official position adopted by Harvard University. She is not a Harvard-trained immunologist, and as far as I can tell is no longer affiliated with Harvard University. “Zero Risk”? Well, that’s a lie as well.

    As for her body of scholarly work, I find just 8 papers in PubMed with her as an author. Only one of those papers lists her as the lead author (the one who does most of the work), and none list her as the corresponding author (the one who designed and directed the study). And exactly 0 of those papers has anything to do with vaccines.

    Her letter is somewhat interesting for what it doesn’t say. Notice that in her list of individual vaccines and why the unvaccinated do not pose a risk, she does not mention measles, mumps, or rubella. The Disneyland and Minnesota outbreaks make it VERY clear that unvaccinated children pose a risk for transmitting the disease. Likewise for influenza–no proof that the unvaccinated can’t catch influenza and pass it along. Obvious risks here, despite the title of the letter.

    Also notice the obfuscation around the acellular pertussis vaccine. Nowhere does she claim that an unvaccinated person does not pose a risk of catching and transmitting the disease. All she does is point to a primate study that showed that non-human primates that were vaccinated are still capable of developing asymptomatic pertussis colonization. That’s definitely NOT the same as saying the unvaccinated aren’t a risk for spreading the disease. Nor is it proof that asymptomatic vaccinated humans can spread pertussis.

    Ask yourself this question: if this is such ground-breaking research, why isn’t she submitting it for publication in a respected, peer-reviewed medical journal? Spoiler alert: it’s neither ground-breaking nor real research.

    Why is a single immunologist with weak academic credentials being more believable than thousands of independent scientists with far more impressive credentials who have conducted hundreds of studies that show the safety and efficacy of vaccines? Spoiler alert: confirmation bias.

    • Mike Stevens

      “Why is a single immunologist with weak academic credentials being more
      believable than thousands of independent scientists with far more
      impressive credentials who have conducted hundreds of studies that show
      the safety and efficacy of vaccines?”

      Maybe an antivaxer will chip in and tell us.

      • Kevin Williams

        I’m going to predict that any response will include one or more of the following phrases: “Big Pharma,” “bought and paid for,” “shill,” “whistle-blower,” “follow the money,” and/or “Dr. PrOffit.”

        • JGC

          While the real answer is simply “Because she’s telling us exactly what we want to hear!”

    • JGC

      This doesn’t often happen but I actually have a better publication record than she does.

      • Mike Stevens

        Snap!

        • Renè

          Mike Stevens just opened his fly.

        • ciaparker2

          Glad you’ve already got the Union Jack up. I’m very sorry, again. I don’t know how this will end.

          • Kevin Williams

            Far less scary than a doting mother taking her infant to the doctor and beaming “I reject the benefits of decades of peer-reviewed medical research by thousands of experts in relevant fields so that I can follow the advice I’ve gotten from mommy blogs, YouTube videos, defrocked doctors, B-list celebrities, and peddlers of unregulated and untested vitamin supplements.”

          • poppy72

            I am a pro vaxxer, and if it makes you feel any better I also have had lots of my comments removed, so I do not think just anti vaxxers are targeted.

          • ciaparker2

            You don’t know what they’ve done to me. Can’t get into it now.

          • poppy72

            Trust me I know all about it,these are my first comments in over a month.

          • Mike Stevens

            Thanks for the thoughts, Cia.

          • ciaparker2

            On my end, your comment to yourself directly below (at this time), is blank. Like some I saw last night. I really can’t think of any reason that anyone would censor or delete your comments. And, of course, no justifiable reason that anyone would do it to mine, except that I’m on the other side of the fence from the powers that rule the world. I did see that you said that you were paid for commenting.
            Oh, well, I’ve got translation to do and a lot of other things as well. First I’ll check out the news on Manchester. Saw last night that a second explosive device was found, and I saw a video with the presumed jihadi’s admission. I don’t think anyone really thought it was just an accident to start with. And I’ll look at reactions to Trump’s speech in Saudi Arabia. Hope he’ll put our money where his mouth is. I thought last night that your children might easily have been at the concert. I’m sure you did too, or some comparable event.

          • Mike Stevens

            I don’t get paid for commenting.

            There is a particularly vile troll called Rene, who resorts to calling people names beginning with c and f. He is homophobic and extremely bigoted.
            He has called me a rapist and pedoph1le.
            He has photoshopped a “screenshot” making it appear I said I am paid to post, which is probably what you saw.
            I have never been paid a penny for commenting on discus, and the only pharma funding I have ever received has been conference registration fees for a couple of HIV conferences I attended in the 1990s.

          • FallsAngel

            “the only pharma funding I have ever received has been conference
            registration fees for a couple of HIV conferences I attended in the
            1990s.”

            I once got a ticket to a Colorado Rockies game from a Merck salesman. Funny, because I never had any input into what vaccines the state of CO bought as I didn’t even work for them! Plus, there are some vaccines ONLY Merck makes; the state had to buy them from Merck. Oh, well, I guess it was a little “thank you” for giving them a lot of business.

          • Mike Stevens

            Shill!!!!!!!

          • AutismDadd

            But they still bribed you and you let them.

          • Judith

            You comment day and night – it is very strange, particularly as you claim to be a doctor.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m part time, Judith. I work 16 hours per week.
            Do you have a job, other than being a full time paid antivaccine apologist, that is?

          • AutismDadd

            They only let him work 16 hours a week.

          • AutismDadd

            Hmm denial…very suspicious

          • 655321

            If you’re not being paid to post you’re a sociopath. You’re a sociopath either way actually, whether paid or not.

          • AutismDadd

            Mike is such a pos, he reacts to a kid with leukemia dying of measles (doesn’t explain how this child was infected) but has little to say about thousands of children maimed and killed by vaccines. How would a REAL doctor act?

          • 655321

            Seems he primarily posts on boards I can no longer post on…….along with WLU/simba/Chris profile. You have to be a real sociopath to intentionally post the misinformation they do while knowing some children will be permanently damaged by their actions.

          • AutismDadd

            Many bricks shy of a load

          • 655321

            12

          • 655321

            Is this your problem Mikey? http://www.businessinsider….

            Maybe you feel the need to damage/injure other peoples children?

          • Mike Stevens

            I see what happened.
            Rene has changed his avatar and user name to Mike Stevens, and posted a comment to make it appear as though I made it. He took a screenshot, which he has then posted, accusing me of making the comment and then deleting my post.

            Of course, the proof is in the screenshot showing the fake account:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d7712ee25305eba031cfa773ab9048b9c3498c733d53e98d21a96a56bc4c06f4.jpg

            Rene, as I said before, you are a lying, sociopathic, utterly disturbed individual. Get help.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually he probably did something else to manufacture the screenshot. Once he changes his username. All the previous comments would use the new name. So he couldn’t do that and be replying to Rene as he in his screenshot.

            He probably just live edited the HTML just like I did in the post where I make it look like he’s admitting to running a scam.

          • Mike Stevens

            Suppose so. But I don’t think he has the intelligence to live edit HTML.
            He may just have done an MS paint job, like this:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a7ab93f5fa3b7da14da1ba8e69950f8656b72177a243af3585b9c1bbdab59a8.jpg

          • Realiτy022
          • Jonathan Graham

            Good point. That seems more along his skill level.

          • ciaparker2

            I apologize, although I have to say I don’t really follow all this. I don’t think, however, that you are sincere in much of what you say about vaccines. And I don’t understand why anyone would sling such low insults at someone he wouldn’t even recognize if he were to see him on the street, about whose personal life he knows nothing.

          • shay simmons

            ” I don’t think, however, that you are sincere in much of what you say about vaccines. ”

            What evidence do you have to support this “belief,” parker?

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • shay simmons

            In other words, you’ve got nothin’.

          • FallsAngel

            Jeez, cia, can’t you come up with something better?

          • Mike Stevens

            Falls, you might want to remove your upvotes from Rene’s fake-Reality comments…

          • Realiτy022

            Do you want to sit on my hat Mike??

          • FallsAngel

            I found two of them. I downvoted instead. This is annoying; I wish Disqus had some policy about names that you couldn’t do that.

          • poppy72

            I just apologised to him thinking it was our Reality22.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            They do have such a rule. Disqus Basic Rules –>Impersonation.

            Whether it’s enforced or not is the relevant question.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            “Nwmt”

            This is the problem.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            “I apologize, although I have to say I don’t really follow all this.”

            Oh, what nonsense, Cia. If you’re smarter than global scientific and medical consensus, then you’re smart enough to understand the concept of a mask.

            “I don’t think, however, that you are sincere in much of what you say about vaccines. ”

            Nobody cares what anyone thinks. What matters is what evidence there is.

            “And I don’t understand why anyone would sling such low insults at someone he wouldn’t even recognize if he were to see him on the street, about whose personal life he knows nothing.”

            Mike is making a judgement based on the behaviour that Rene has displayed here. Can you explain how making a judgement on that behaviour as shown on disqus requires Mike to recognise Rene if they meet in an airport somewhere one day?

            Now, it’s possible that some pain Rene has been through might be understandable but that doesn’t mean his behaviour is acceptable.

            Here’s a hint: Brush up on the terms ‘libel’ and ‘cultural differences’.

          • Realiτy022

            Yeah. These provaxxers are crazy!!!666!!!

            They think vaccines come from flying saucers to enslave the human race!!!666!!!!

            Wooo!!!!

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

            Hi once again, Rene.
            Dance, monkey!
            Dance.

            Flagged.

          • FallsAngel

            Exactly! While cia was gone for a while, Rene came along and showed us what a jagoff he is! (Not profanity, mind you, all ye flaggers!)
            http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/pittsburghese/

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            ??

          • FallsAngel

            What don’t you understand? cia was gone for a while, months actually. Rene came along in that interim. Rene is a jagoff. Jagoff is not considered profantiy.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Ah, that makes more sense, thanks.

          • poppy72

            I see Rene has changed his user name AGAIN.

          • Mike Stevens

            DT, Cia is saying she doesn’t understand why Rene would say those things. She is basically agreeing his behaviour is unacceptable.
            Cut her a little slack on this occasion.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Maybe?

          • AutismDadd

            Boo hoo, as if you are perfect.

          • Mike Stevens

            ” I don’t think, however, that you are sincere in much of what you say about vaccines.”
            You know me Cia. I am, (like you are I think), very sincere regarding what I believe.

          • Realiτy022

            What do you think about aluminum neurotoxicity?

          • ciaparker2

            Which doesn’t mean believing every word that you post online.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Of course it doesn’t.

            If they don’t have evidence, I don’t believe anyone. If they do have evidence, I don’t need to believe them.

            When pressed for evidence, Mike provides it. It may or may not be crap evidence but it’s provided. When pressed for evidence, those claims that were worth your time to make are not worth your time to support.

          • AutismDadd

            I like Rene

          • http://stoplynching.com Suki49

            Hi, Autism Dadd. It appears I have been blocked or flagged on the VacTruth site. My replies are no longer appearing. That seems like a dirty trick.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s odd. The guy who runs it doesn’t ban. Jeffry John Auferheide. Maybe you can contact him. Go to Vactruth top commenters and he is listed.

          • AutismDadd

            Have you tried another Vactruth forum to see if you are banned there?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Well, Cia, since you aren’t a sheep and don’t just trust what you are told, you should have no problem linking to this comment of Mike’s.

            Hint: Mike’s disqus I.D. is disqus_0bT5QNRHDf/

          • shay simmons

            Why would a parent take a child to a pediatrician if s/he had no intention of following that doctor’s medical advice?

          • ciaparker2

            The parent is the customer, and “buyer beware” is a warning which should be ever-present in his or her mind. The parent must research the vaccines and VPDs very carefully before setting foot in the doctor’s office, and tell him or her what vaccines, if any, she would like her child to receive. She should not believe anything the doctor says implicitly, but must later confirm it, or not, herself.

          • shay simmons

            Why? If you don’t trust your pediatrician, why even take the child in?

            If you’re going to second-guess the person who has had four years of pre-med, four years of medical school, residency, and then clinical experience when you have NONE, why even bother? Stay home and sprinkle pixie dust over the kid.

          • ciaparker2

            If you buy a car, would you be adamant about not going to a car dealer? Would you trust the salesman implicitly, or would you trust but verify? Or not trust at all, just meet and deal?

            If your child has an infection and needs an antibiotic, would you stew about not being able to get an antibiotic without a prescription from a doctor, or would you research that kind of infection and the antibiotics usually prescribed for it, benefits and risks, and then go to the doctor to get the prescription?

            What you should NOT do is hold the doctor in the sort of regard usually reserved for priests of a religion. And you shouldn’t hold them in that sort of exaggerated regard either. The buck stops with the parent. Doctors are beholden to their pharma patrons, who hold them on a tight leash, distributing carrots or sticks for them as the need arises. And your child’s welfare plays very little part in what opinions they hold.

          • shay simmons

            When I buy a car I don’t insist that I know better than the engineer who designed it.

            Doctors are beholden to their pharma patrons, who hold them on a tight leash, distributing carrots or sticks for them as the need arises. And your child’s welfare plays very little part in what opinions they hold.

            Absolute and utter bollocks. If that’s how you feel, why do you bother going to a doctor at all?

          • ciaparker2

            But do you research the car online or from magazines before you go in to look at cars? Do you believe everything the car salesman tells you about gas mileage and how many lawsuits have been brought over accidents caused by the car’s design? Or do you assume that if he tells you it’s an absolutely safe car then it must be true? You interested in buying the Brooklyn Bridge?
            If a doctor tells you that vaccines are safe, don’t cause autism, seizure disorders, asthma, and allergies, then you need to just stop your ears, he’s either ignorant himself or has a motive to deceive you. Go get your info elsewhere, then come back. I think the TD is a good vaccine series to get after the age of two, the polio series only if it comes back here, and for babies between six and eighteen months old who aren’t breastfed but ARE in daycare, then the Hib vaccine Is probably a good idea, and I say that fully recognizing that it causes peanut allergies in one in fifty American children. That one is a tough call. It IS dangerous, but before the vaccine one in 200 young children got a serious case of it every year, and one in a thousand of them died of it. The germs are still around, a common commensal that most people get permanent immunity to by the time they’re five. But in some babies it was often deadly by the ’80s, before the vaccine (not before that, but that’s another issue). Meaning that the parents need to read extensively about each vaccine, each disease, and talk to people about it. The others I’d refuse outright, but I’d definitely leave it to the parent to make the final call. And if your doctor wants to dismiss you if you don’t obey his every injunction, then you’d better get out while you still can.
            We very rarely go to a doctor. VERY rarely. Colds, coughs, flu, eczema, bronchitis, we treat at home. Doctor-approved treatments are the number three cause of death in the US.

          • JGC

            ‘If a doctor tells you that vaccines are safe, don’t cause autism, seizure disorders, asthma, and allergies, then you need to just stop your ears, he’s either ignorant himself or has a motive to deceive you.”
            To state this you must have actual evidence demonstrating that vaccines are not safe, do cause autism, do cause asthma, and do cause allergies.
            Why then have you never bothered to provide any when asked?

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, cia’s always posting “studies” that turn out to be case reports, stuff like that; stuff from years ago using different vaccines, opinion pieces, etc.

          • ciaparker2

            nwmt

          • Gerie

            JGC, because you and others will shoot down whatever she, ciaparker2, says. There are many, many reasons to ask questions about the safety of these toxins being injected into our children, and us. I challenge you to watch at least the entire first video/episode of the recent and excellent “The Truth About Vaccines.” There IS research, a lot; and there are many, many questions being asked by very intelligent, highly educated, highly credentialed professionals, and more and more pediatricians ARE speaking up with their concerns. Watch the series. You just might be astounded…. unless, of course, you, and many of you here, are in the employ of the vaccine industry.

          • JGC

            I could only shoot down cia’s or anyone else’s claims if they were invalid, Gerie. I’m unaware of any evidence which supports a claim that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination excess the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to the infectious diseases they protect against.

            If you can point to peer reviewed articles or clinical study results suggesting otherwise I’d certainly wish to consider that evidence.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            This goes for me too.

          • FallsAngel

            Likewise!

          • Brooke Dunne
          • Brooke Dunne

            Thanks for the comment, because this is an excellent example of exactly the kind of stupidity the other 97% of us have to deal with.

            Jennifer Margullis, Paul Thomas, Barbara Loe Fisher … these are the “experts” in Episode 1 of Ty Bollinger’s infomercial. Not one of them has ever done any research. None has ever published a single study. They are all in the business of selling books or selling something. Paul Thomas outright lies at the beginning, saying the American Academy of Pediatrics has never done any vaccine safety research. Sure, let’s pretend the journal Pediatrics doesn’t exist. That’s where quite a few vaccine safety studies have been published.

            Sadly, there stupid people who will not catch this.

            That’s really the whole problem. There are people who literally so stupid, they cannot tell the difference between a credible source and some random clown trying to sell them something. “Forget what your doctor recommends, watch this infomercial.”

            Stupid people like that should have no say in public health matters, in my opinion. They deserve to be mocked.

          • Brooke Dunne

            Thanks for the comment, because this is an excellent example of exactly the kind of stupidity the other 97% of us have to deal with.

            Jennifer Margullis, Paul Thomas, Barbara Loe Fisher … these are the “experts” in Episode 1 of Ty Bollinger’s infomercial. Not one of them has ever done any research. None has ever published a single study. They are all in the business of selling books or selling something. Paul Thomas outright lies at the beginning, saying the American Academy of Pediatrics has never done any vaccine safety research. Sure, let’s pretend the journal Pediatrics doesn’t exist. That’s where quite a few vaccine safety studies have been published.

            Sadly, there are stupid people who will not catch this.

            That’s really the whole problem. People who literally so stupid, they cannot tell the difference between a credible source and some random clown trying to sell them something. “Forget what your doctor recommends, watch this infomercial.”

            Stupid people like that should have no say in public health matters, in my opinion. They deserve to be mocked.

          • shay simmons

            If a doctor tells you that vaccines are safe, don’t cause autism, seizure disorders, asthma, and allergies, he’s correct.

            . Go get your info elsewhere, then come back I have.

            http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/Vaccines_Do_Not_Cause_Autism.htm

            I think What you think is immaterial. Science is evidence, not belief.

            We very rarely go to a doctor. We already know that you quack yourself and your daughter, parker.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Why would you want to go to a doctor who either a)knows less than you or b)is dishonest?

          • ciaparker2

            To get the prescription. We’re lucky, no diabetes here, no asthma, so no need for regular doctor visits. Once every several years we might go to a doctor to get a prescription for an antibiotic. My daughter had sinusitis when she was six and I took her to the doctor, who concurred with my diagnosis of sinusitis after a cold and gave her an antibiotic. Good as new the same day.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Why do you trust the either-ignorant-or-dishonest-doctor to prescribe things?

          • ciaparker2

            I don’t take his word for anything. Easy to research anything these days.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            I’m not talking about taking his word for anything, Cia. I’m asking bout why you trust the doctor who is either ignorant or dishonest to write a prescription? How do you know that’s he’s not attempting to make money or poison your child with said prescription?

            And you still haven’t told me what peer-reviewed journal your research is published in.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            No, I don’t conduct wind tunnel experiments for cars and I doubt shay does either.

            Now, evidence?

          • JGC

            Exactly what ‘carrots’ do pharma companies dispense to the average general practitioner, and what ‘sticks’ do they threaten to beat them with? Be specific.

          • ciaparker2

            Lunches, freebies of many sorts, speaking engagements, funding for many projects, vacations in the Caribbean if a conference is being held there, publishing their articles, the general approval of the establishment. Professional sanctions, including having their medical license revoked if they don’t toe the line (also known as being wakefielded), lawsuits, smear campaigns in all media, and shunning. Many examples of each everywhere.

          • JGC

            Cia, have you been drinking? Pharmaceutical companies don’t have the authority to revoke a physician’s license to practice.

          • ciaparker2

            And Drs. Walker-Smith, Murch, and Wakefield? Oh, yeah, Big Pharma just paid Brian Deer to cobble together a ridiculous action against them before the GMC, a man completely unaffected by the issue, who brought the action on his personal recognizance, and IT revoked their licenses. When asked who had paid him to attend so many hours of so many meetings for so many months, he said Channel Four and the Sunday Times, but they both denied having paid him to do this. So who did? He didn’t deny that SOMEONE paid him, he just lied about who it was. And their licenses were restored to Drs. Walker-Smith and Murch when they brought action before the High Court, and the judge ruled that the GMC had used shallow reasoning to reach false conclusions. Dr. Wakefield was not part of that lawsuit because his insurance wouldn’t pay the costs.
            And then we have Dr. Sears and that doctor in Tennessee whose name escapes me. Don’t toe the pharma line and we WILL put you out of business. Dr. Sears used his professional judgment to decide that a child who had already had severe reactions to vaccines shouldn’t get any more, and WHAM! Into the dungeon with HIM! And all the pharma rank and file pen diatribes against him, or more likely it was just the same ghostwritten libel which was sent out to every available pharma pen to repeat verbatim. As well as many others whose stories are published on a daily basis. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

          • JGC

            The UK’s General Medical Council struck Wakefield off because he was found guilty of serious professional misconduct.

            The the best of my knowl she Sears has not been incarcerated, in a dungeon or anywhere else.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Do you have evidence for any of those claims, cia?

          • shay simmons

            You need to read the ruling, parker. Walker Smith threw Wakefield under the bus.

          • FallsAngel

            cia knows all that. She’s just practicing the old “if you say it often enough, people will believe it” trick.

          • AutismDadd

            I read Deer was paid by the British Medical Journal to attend court. The BMJ is operated by the General Medical Council but funded largely by Vaccine Making Corporations like GlaxoSmithKline the MMR maker in question. And yes Deer’s fiction was given weight over 13 Trained Medical Professionals when he had ZERO medical training himself.

          • Judith

            Well said Cia – these doctors who use a precautionary approach are in huge danger. There is so much money to be made from vaccines and you can see the paid pharma army descending here. Interesting the most money from vaccines is to be made by the admitted increasing incidence of chronic disease (vaccines have not reduced this but increased it) and the optimism is fuelled by the prospect of more forced vaccinations – spreading to the adult population – which by the way makes a mockery of herd immunity as most adults are not up to date with their vaccinations.

            23rd May 2017, Florida-The global vaccines market size worth USD 61.6 billion by 2024, according to a new research study published by Ameri Research. The market is expected to witness strong demand due to increasing number of immunization programs, high investment in research & development, growing awareness about vaccination and access to healthcare facilities in the emerging and developing regions.

            “The growing prevalence of chronic diseases, therise in healthcare expenditure and constant support from stakeholders such as government agencies, WHO (World Health Organization), UNICEF (The United Nations Children’s Fund) in improving access to vaccination are some of the factors positively reinforcing the market growth. For instance, the number of people vaccinated for tuberculosis, polio, measles, influenza, hepatitis and other diseases is growing every year. The U.S. has one of the largest immunization programs with a vaccination rate of 84.2% for diphtheria, tetanus, 93.3% for polio, and 91.5% for measles, mumps and rubella (MMR).”

            http://www.crossroadstoday.com/story/35499411/vaccines-market-to-reach-616-billion-by-2024-ameri-research-inc

          • poppy72

            The complementary & alternative medicine market is expected to generate a revenue of USD 196.87 billion by 2025. https://www.aboutpharma.com/blog/2017/05/10/global-196-87-billion-alternative-and-complementary-medicine-market-analysis-and-segment-forecasts-2013-2025-research-and-markets/ So who is making all the money?

          • Judith

            Great – people are waking up. Complementary medicine is about wholistic health not treating a symptom with toxic poisons.

          • 655321

            People may be waking up, but the cartel is stepping up their game at the same time with nations around the world pushing this agenda. Also note the push here in the US to disarm the American public. The vaccine agenda would very likely be much further along without the 2nd Amendment.

          • Judith

            You are so right 655321 – I see that Germany is ignoring the Nuremberg Convention and intending to fine people large sums of money if they don’t take these toxic vaccines. Italy is also heavily under Big Pharma Pressure. The spider arm of Pharma is reaching into every aspect of the media, allopathic medicine, hospitals and universities

          • poppy72

            So you think Complementary medicine would have saved me from my cancer? Do you really think that? If it was not for that toxic poison known as Chemotherapy, I would have died years ago. My biggest concern is that three times the money is spent on woo medicine as opposed to vaccination which has proven itself to be life saving.

          • Erin Oakley

            I think a raw vegan diet and methylglyoxal would have done it.

            Have you read Albert Szent-Gyorgi’s articles on cancer?

          • AutismDadd

            They have influence clown.

          • JGC

            sufficient to cause a doctor they decide to target to have his license to practice rescinded? Nonsense.

          • AutismDadd

            Nonsense to you of course.

          • JGC

            I’ll happily revise my position if you can provide evidence demonstrating pharmaceutical companies actually can and do exercise this degree of control over the actions of state medical boards.
            Got any?

          • AutismDadd

            Companies like Merck write medical manuals used by physicians. Physicians use their products in their practice. No I guess there’s ZERO influence.

          • JGC

            What is found in the Merck Manual, AD, that gives pharma companies the ability to demand a specific medical license be pulled?

            How does the fact that physicians prescribe Merck products give pharma companies the ability to demand a medical license be pulled?

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. How did it happen to Wakefield?

          • JGC

            Wakefield committed serious professional misconduct, AD. That’s how it happened.

          • AutismDadd

            Buh Wah Ha Ha he peed-off GlaxoSmithKline is what he did.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            And be sure to cite pharma companies and not insurance companies.

          • Gerie

            Most docs/pediatricians do not have the time to do the research about what’s even in the vaccines, nor the possible heightened reactions of some of the adjuvants used. They follow the schedules provided by the vaccine manufacturers and/or vaccine unit of CDC (and surely you now that unit is very much part of a revolving door with the vaccine industry).

            There IS very much research available about why we should all be concerned with the safety or non safety of vaccines. The evidence IS there. The excellent docu-series “The Truth About Vaccines,” with interviews of over 50 very highly qualified professionals, including research scientists, physicians, and lawyers, discuss the evidence, the research, the need to question. They are not “anti-vaxxers.” They are saying “let’s have a conversation about it.” Let’s look at changing very toxic ingredients; let’s look at the need to inject newborns and tiny infants, whose immune systems need time to become strong.

            And what CDC has done to skew studies, especially with the safety of the MMR vaccine is unconscionable. And the vaccine industry will do whatever it takes to be sure the mandates to vaccinate grow stronger; they will protect their tens of billions of profits, and chronic sicknesses from our over-vaccinated society will continue to grow. In that docu-series, they discuss the “herd” immunity, the “common good” concern. I would suggest strongly anyone reading this to at least watch the first dvd/video of that series. THEN discuss why you disagree with their findings. That’s all I will respond. I am very, very tired of responding to
            negative statements on my own site because of my sharing this young PhD’s
            letter of concern.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            That’s certainly one good approach, Cia.

            Now, two questions:

            1)What peer-reviewed journal was your research published in?
            2)Have you ever set foot in a doctor’s office as a parent?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Have you got that link yet, Cia?

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “Hard to imagine a doting mother taking her infant to the doctor and beaming, “Go ahead, shoot him up with WHATEVER you want, I have COMPLETE confidence in you and your patrons.” Is anyone still doing that?”

            Huh.. you know what I find hard to imagine, ciaparker2?

            This..

            ciaparker2: I had shingles when my daughter was nearly two, and I deliberately gave it to her so that she would get chicken pox and have permanent immunity. She had a fever for one day and vomited, and was covered with lesions for about two weeks, but she recovered without incident, and now I don’t have to even think about chicken pox, exposure, or whether a booster may become necessary in the future.”

          • Judith

            Totally agree with you there Cia – it is a dirty game with well paid players dominating.

      • Andrew Lazarus

        So do I.

    • Mike Stevens

      And not only does she have only 8 publications, several of them support or suggest further roles for vaccination.
      It seems only after she was cast aside from meaningful research that she has reinvented herself as being antivaccine in a straw-grasping exercise to stop her career disappearing down the tubes.

      • Valerie Finnigan

        Doing that didn’t stop Andrew Wakefield’s career from going down the tubes. It’s kind of sad for him, really. His career might have lasted longer had he stuck with gastroenterology instead of deciding specializing in the digestive system made him just as qualified an authority on autism as any neurologist or developmental psychologist.

        • Kevin Williams

          Wakefield’s career might have lasted longer had he obtained the required ethics approvals for his study prior to performing invasive tests on his 12 subjects.

          Wakefield’s career might have lasted longer had he declared the multiple conflicts of interest when submitting his paper for publication.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            His study still wouldn’t have been taken seriously given the extremely small sample size and the lack of any controls.

    • Josh Acid

      The headline is a little misleading. She actually says that declining most vaccines, not all, pose zero risk to others. Do you dispute that? I’m not sure why someone would want to force all newborns to take a Hep B shot.

      • Kevin Williams

        I’m not really sure how it could be more misleading. It’s not a statement by Harvard or anyone currently associated with Harvard. And the rest of the headline is only true for a few vaccines. I wouldn’t even say “most.” It’s certainly not true for any communicable disease such as measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, varicella, influenza, HPV, Hib, or hepatitis B.

        At the risk of enabling your goalpost shift, I’ll also address your question about the Hep B shot. The short answer is this: Nobody FORCES anybody to be vaccinated. Many places have enacted strong incentives to vaccinate, but if you’re willing to forgo those incentives, you can decline to vaccinate yourself or your children. However, as a bonus, I’ll also explain why you should want to vaccinate your child.

        Usually, when an anti-vaxxer asks this question, they preface it with “Hep B is a sexually transmitted disease, so why…” This ignores the obvious fact that there are other ways in which Hep B can be transmitted, including from a Hep B-positive mother to a newborn infant. Infants and children are less likely to display symptoms than adults, but are at a much higher risk for developing chronic liver problems from Hep B later in life. Hep B can cause cirrhosis of the liver, cancer, and death. The vaccine is extremely safe, and serious side effects for very rare. Multiple studies have shown that the Hep B vaccine is not a risk factor for fever or sepsis, infant death, or other serious health problems.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15247605
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11734710
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17597263

        In short, the vaccine is a safe way of preventing chronic liver disease caused by Hep B, however it may be transmitted, and children are at greater risk than adults of a bad outcome from Hep B infection.

        • Skepticalofskeptics

          “The short answer is this: Nobody FORCES anybody to be vaccinated” – not yet. But in this world of “mandates”, perhaps it is just a matter of time. Besides, these “incentives” are becoming punitive – ie in the case of Italy they are proposing large fines if you do not comply. Furthermore, the reality for some people could very well be that declining Hep B in the hospital results in bullying and intimidation by medical staff. But sure, is true that we are not at the point of being physically forced – yet.

          Your third paragraph is just deflection – sure it can be transmitted by mom to child in the case that mom has it, but CDC recommends it be given to ALL newborns, not just those in that very specific and rare circumstance.

          Lastly, are there studies looking at the safety within the context of the ever-expanding schedule? Not that I am aware. Is there evidence that the shot lasts 15-18 years or so, up until the point the individual becomes sexually active and would be at highest risk?

          • Kevin Williams

            Mother-to-child is only one possible transmission path for Hep B. I won’t tell you to “do your own research” but I will direct you to other comments in this discussion that detail other vectors and the risks associated with infants and children contracting Hep B. In short, Hep B is generally asymptomatic in young children, but is a known cause of liver failure and death later in life. Given that the vaccine has repeatedly been shown to be incredibly safe, why wouldn’t you want to protect your child from a horrible and painful death later in life?

            Yes, there are studies that look at the safety of vaccines in the context of the entire schedule:

            “Each new vaccine considered for inclusion in the immunization schedule is tested within the context of the existing schedule and reviewed by clinical researchers, who analyze the balance of demonstrated benefits
            and risks. Thus, each new vaccine is approved on the basis of a detailed evaluation of both the vaccine itself and the immunization schedule.” https://www.nap.edu/read/13563/chapter/2

            “Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20 years among healthy vaccinated individuals who initiated hepatitis B vaccination >6 months of age. The vaccine confers long-term protection against clinical illness and chronic hepatitis B virus infection.” http://epi.publichealth.nc.gov/cd/lhds/manuals/hepB/docs/hbv_vaccination.pdf

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            “Given that the vaccine has repeatedly been shown to be incredibly safe,
            why wouldn’t you want to protect your child from a horrible and painful
            death later in life?”

            Really?

            1) Vioxx underwent rigorous clinical trials to gain FDA approval, was deemed ‘safe and effective’ only to be yanked 5 years later after jacking up 1000s of people. There are countless others examples of pharm products (inlcuding vaccines) being yanked after supposedly having been “repeatedly shown to be safe”.

            2) The calculus very simply needs to be what are the risks / benefits of the medical intervention and what are the risks/benefits of doing nothing?

            “An independent review of the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System – the national database maintained in the US to track and study vaccine reactions) data; publications by governmental, pro-vaccine, and anti-vaccine groups; and a sample of the medical literature leads to the following conclusions:

            For most children, the risk of a serious vaccine reaction may be 100 times greater than the risk of hepatitis B.”

            – Dr Jane Orient, Executive Director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). She stated that:

          • Cardinal Fang

            Is that the same VAERS database that also has reports that vaccines turned someone into the Incredible Hulk. and another person into Wonder Woman?

            Anyone can add a report to VAERS. It doesn’t need to prove causation – or even be true. It can be as tenuous as “a friend of a friend heard this guy saying down the pub that his Mother’s friend’s son hear that someone had a bad reaction to a vaccine”. Mining the VAERS database for proof that vaccines are bad is the scientific equivalent of dumpster diving.

            And I’ll give you a hint – trying to use the “oh but they said Vioxx was safe” argument doesn’t stand up either (a variant of the “oh but they said thalidomide was safe” trope). Perhaps you might wish to step out of your comfort zone of the anti-vaxx echo chambers for a second to find out why: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/twisted-illogical-gambits-antivaccination-cult/

          • Kevin Williams

            1) So you’re countering my claim about the safety of the Hep B vaccine with a story about Vioxx? That’s about the same as not driving a Jeep because some Hondas have been recalled.
            2) Unfortunately, most anti-vaxxers are completely incapable of such a calculus. Dumpster diving in the VAERS database doesn’t change that. I assume you are aware of the multiple disclaimers on the VAERS website including these: “The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database contains information on unverified
            reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization
            with US-licensed vaccines. Reports are accepted from anyone.” and “Note
            that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.”

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            1)The point is that millions were spent to show Vioxx was safe and effective, Rigorous trials were conducted. Getting FDA approval is not easy. Yet, stuff happens. There are many other examples. Of course, the people who had adverse reactions to FDA approved drugs can actually sue the manufacturer – not so with vaccine injury.

            2) You leave out that even CDC admits that adverse reactions are woefully under-reported (~1-10% depending on who you ask). There’s supposed to be active surveillance in place to understand what’s going on in the real world.

            Besides, disregarding a whole swath evidence full stop because it is anecdotal, is ridiculous. Skeptics insist on hiding behind ‘science’ and completely dismissing anecdotes. ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE IS STILL EVIDENCE.

            If a murder is committed, will the prosecutor show only fingerprints on the murder weapon to the jury (scientific evidence)?

            In the mind of ‘skeptics’ the prosecutor will not bother to call the eyewitnesses to the stand. “We don’t need eyewitness testimony – that’s just anecdotal evidence”.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Besides, disregarding a whole swath evidence full stop because it is anecdotal, is ridiculous.

            Anecdotal actually means “not necessarily true or reliable”. Discarding a lot of poor evidence is likely the right thing to do from a probability perspective.

            If a murder is committed, will the prosecutor show only fingerprints on the murder weapon to the jury (scientific evidence)?

            Fingerprints are actually not that great in terms of reliability except perhaps under the best of circumstances (complete print) so let’s substitute DNA evidence to represent science. The applicability of the evidence is dependent on the question we are trying to answer. DNA evidence on a murder weapon answers the question “Did person X handle the murder weapon” rather well.

            In the mind of ‘skeptics’ the prosecutor will not bother to call the eyewitnesses to the stand. “We don’t need eyewitness testimony – that’s just anecdotal evidence”.

            If the eye witness testimony is attempting to answer the same question “Did person X handle the murder weapon” then yeah. We don’t care, especially if the eyewitnesses give the opposite answer to the DNA evidence. Including them would be more misleading than anything else.

            Now if you’re trying to answer a different question you should specify.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            ” Anecdotal actually means “not necessarily true or reliable” ”

            you left off “because based on personal accounts”.

            “We don’t care, especially if the eyewitnesses give the opposite answer
            to the DNA evidence. Including them would be more misleading than
            anything else..”

            Yes, so the prosecution wouldn’t call the eyewitness but the DEFENSE WOULD.

            And the jury would decide based on the TOTALITY OF THE EVIDENCE presented if there was reasonable doubt. Your comment above displays your bias quite clearly. Your are concerned only with getting convictions, not finding the truth.

            Thank you for making my point for me.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes, so the prosecution wouldn’t call the eyewitness but the DEFENSE WOULD.

            In order to be misleading. Sure, that’s possible. However your arguing for misleading people is rather counter to your point that you are somehow about truth.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Nonsense – it’s called giving the accused a fair trial – which involves ALL of the evidence being heard. It’s up to the jury to weigh the evidence presented to it.

            DNA evidence by itself is circumstantial.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Presenting low quality evidence which is counter to high-quality evidence really only misleads people. Again if we’re talking about the truth. Which is why, getting back to the actual context there is little value in marching a bunch of people who say: “He never touched that” when his DNA is on the weapon.

            DNA evidence by itself is circumstantial.

            Not in this sense. However if you change the question you’re asking it can be. For example it’s circumstantial to placing someone at the scene of a crime or the act of murder. However eyewitness accounts are also circumstantial to specific questions. Witnessing someone’s car outside a building, for example is circumstantial to the person being in the building.

          • Kevin Williams

            1) This (and other examples) are precisely why we have post-licensing monitoring of drugs, including vaccines. I’ll offer another example: Rotashield. This rotavirus vaccine showed no significant risk of intussusception during pre-licensing clinical trials involving 10,000 subjects. However, after the vaccine was introduced in 1998, a slightly elevated risk of intussusception was detected and the vaccine was withrdawn a year later. The first Hep B vaccine was introduced in 1986, and a second in 1989. 30 years of post-licensing monitoring has detected no elevated risk associated with this vaccines. Despite your with to generalize this discussion into a condemnation of the pharmaceutical industry in order to avoid addressing my specific claims, I stand by my original statement: The Hep B vaccine is incredibly safe.

            2) Yes, of course adverse reactions are under-reported in VAERS. That’s because most adverse reactions simply aren’t worth the time to report: mild fever; redness, swelling, and/or soreness at the injection site.

            I’m not completely disregarding VAERS. What I am disregarding is the application of VAERS data for which it was not intended. Since no causality is implied by any VAERS entry, using those entries to assert a problem caused by vaccines is misuse of the data. Are you aware that severe events reported in VAERS are followed up, but no changes are made to VAERS regardless of the outcome of that follow-up? Even the most ridiculous events remain unless the person who submitted the event voluntarily withdraws it.

            Anecdotes may be evidence, but they are NOT data. There is a big difference. Anecdotes may suggest a hypothesis to be tested by the scientific method, but you can’t leap directly from anecdotes to a conclusion without the intervening steps.

            Since courts of law are notoriously bad and judging science ( http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/10/22/italian-court-convicts-7-scientists-for-failing-to-predict-earthquake.html ), I’m not going to bother responding to your analogy.

          • Ron Roy

            ”The Hep B vaccine is not safe” FTFY A good friend and a co-worker of his ( both LNAs ) died because of an auto immune disease ( CIDP ) they got from the Hep B vaccine.
            An excerpt from http://www.thinktwice.com/hepb.htmTo conclude that the Hepatitis B vaccine is safe because VAERS only reports 19 deaths is scientific fraud. In fact, I obtained the raw data from the VAERS system and found 54 reported SIDS cases after Hepatitis B vaccination in just the 18 months from January 1996 to May 1997. That’s almost 15 times as many deaths per year as their own flawed study reported. There are 17,000 reports of adverse reactions to Hepatitis B vaccine in the 1996-97 raw data. Clearly, something is fishy about VAERS. VAERS was set up by the FDA and CDC and is supposed to be monitored by vaccine manufacturers. If there are 17,000 reports and VAERS doesn’t even return the NY Medical Examiner’s call, how many other deaths and injuries go unreported? I came away from that NAS workshop with the distinct impression that Merck and the CDC didn’t know and didn’t really want to know how many babies are being killed or injured by Hepatitis B vaccination. This is a bureaucratic vaccination program that is on auto-pilot flying into a mountain. The CDC bureaucrats have a vested interest in the status quo. If there were 17,000 reports of a dangerous disease in a 18 month period, the CDC would be all over the case. But when there are 17,000 reports of adverse reactions to a vaccine the CDC advocates for “public health,” the CDC dismisses it as a coincidence. Merck charges $50 a shot for the three-shot series. Where do you think the allegiance of their vaccine safety official Dr. Sharrar lies? He was by far the most arrogant character at the workshop. Merck has sales of upwards of $800 million a year from vaccines.

          • Kevin Williams

            First of all, I’m sorry about the loss of your friend and his co-worker. However, what evidence do you have that their deaths were caused by the Hep B vaccine? Personal anecdotes do not constitute data nor proof of causality.

            I checked out your link. It’s not a research study–it’s just somebody else’s personal anecdote and their experience with the VAERS database. I also downloaded the raw VAERS data to check for myself. For all of 1996 and 1997 there were 5,342 entries pertaining to the Hep B vaccine–so there is no way she could have found 17,000 reports in the first 18 months of 1996-1997.

            Nobody claims a vaccine is safe because of data from the VAERS
            database. In my original post, I linked to three independent studies
            that concluded the Hep B vaccine is safe based on peer reviewed research
            and valid, competent statistical analysis of the collected data–NOT dumpster diving in VAERS.

            Show me some valid science that shows the Hep B vaccine to be a cause of elevated risk for any serious adverse event. Until then, don’t presume to “fix” anything for me.

          • Ron Roy

            The doctors at Dartmouth Hitchcock are the ones who told them their disease was due to the Hep B vaccine they recently got.

          • Kevin Williams

            I realize you might not have the answers, but I’m curious about what disease was caused by the Hep B shots, and how those doctors were able to determine that the disease was caused it.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            I will give you credit for a reasoned and well thought out response. However, the fact remains – (from your link)

            “Thus, key elements of the entire schedule—the number, frequency, timing,
            order, and age at administration of vaccines—have not been
            systematically examined in research studies.”

            https://www.nap.edu/read/13563/chapter/2

          • Kevin Williams

            You asked about studies looking at “the safety within the context of the ever-expanding schedule” and I provided a source that documents that each new vaccine is tested within the context of the existing schedule. To quote again: “Thus, each new vaccine is approved on the basis of a detailed evaluation
            of both the vaccine itself and the immunization schedule.” Both pre-licensing testing and post-licensing monitoring provide the testing you were asking about.

            The fact that my source suggests that additional testing may be beneficial does not negate the point that such testing does, in fact, occur.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            “Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20
            years among healthy vaccinated individuals who initiated hepatitis B
            vaccination >6 months of age.”

            if this is the case, why are hey giving it at birth and not waiting until 6 months?

          • Tripod

            Maybe because the vaccine doesn’t cure HepB but only prevents it. Why on earth would you want to leave a six month window of vulnerability when you don’t have to?

          • Kevin Williams

            “if this is the case, why are hey giving it at birth and not waiting until 6 months?”

            I would have thought the answer to that question is obvious, given that the most common Hep B transmission in infants is mother-to-child.

          • Ron Roy

            I would love to see what would happen if the child of a Mafia member were harmed by vaccines. Methinks a pair of cement overshoes would be in order.

          • sabelmouse

            me too.

          • Ben

            White & Nerdy is back as Well Actualy [sic].

          • sabelmouse

            lol!

        • Skepticalofskeptics

          The other thing I will point out is that it looks like the studies you posted were done by the CDC. That is fine, but unfortunately, we are at the point where many do not trust the CDC due to conflicts of interest, and influence from the pharm industry (see William Thompson and Julie Gerberding for starters). If we want true reform and good science, we need an independent body doing testing completely fire-walled from industry.

          “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” – Dr. Marcia Angell, NJM editor over 20 years

          “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness.” Dr. Richard Horton, editor-in-chief of the Lancet

          • Kevin Williams

            None of the studies in my original post were conducted by the CDC. One was conducted by researchers from the UCLA Center for Vaccine Research, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center; one was conducted by researchers from Kaiser Permanente Vaccine Study Center, Oakland, CA; and the third was conducted by researchers from the Université Paris XI, Villejuif, France.

            I would venture that most of the post-licensing research being conducted on vaccines is done by independent bodies. Scientists are required to list the source of their funding and to declare any potential conflicts of interest. The system may not be perfect, but what would you replace it with? Snake oil salesmen, mommy blogs and Youtube videos?

            A study funded by an anti-vaccine group also found that there is no link between vaccines and autism. http://www.newsweek.com/anti-vaxxers-accidentally-fund-study-showing-theres-no-link-between-autism-and-379245

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Frank Destefano was author on 2 of those studies and works at the CDC – hence why I assumed CDC involvement / influence.

            “The system may not be perfect, but what would you replace it with? Snake oil salesmen, mommy blogs and Youtube videos?”

            I already answered this – an INDEPENDENT body fire-walled from industry. And while we’re at it – direct to consumer pharma advertising needs to go too. US and New Zealand are the only 2 countries that allow it and it essentially makes the mainstream media (which is completely full of shit anyway) captive to the pharm industry.

            I’ll read the article but frankly, why are you bringing up autism? I didn’t mention it so you are resorting to strawman.

            Autism discussion is just a red herring. It’s a subtle way to insinuate that people’s vaccine concerns are completely unfounded.

            Vaccines do not cause autism
            Insinuating… vaccines are perfectly safe

            Gunshot wounds do not cause autism
            Gunshot wounds are perfectly safe?

          • Kevin Williams

            DeStefano is listed as an author on two of the studies, but neither as the lead author or the corresponding author. Conclusion: he made some contribution to each of these studies. It’s a VERY large leap to conclude that all three studies were conducted by the CDC.

            Who should pay for the studies conducted by this independent body?

            I only mentioned the one autism study to show that funding is not a guarantee of favorable results for the funding agency.

            Of course I’m not insinuating that vaccines are perfectly safe. I accept that severe adverse effects occur at a rate of under 1 per 1,000,000 vaccine doses. A rather weak attempt at a strawman.

          • Ron Roy

            Independent bodies that receive funding from drug companies.

          • Kevin Williams

            And your evidence that most post-licensing research being conducted on vaccines by independent research laboratories is…?

        • Kevin

          Kevin Williams you are forgetting that it’s very easy to test the mother for the Hep B virus so I’m afraid that is absolut nonsense.
          Also the studies you soeak of use the CDC as a source who sell vaccines on their website (Just type vaccine prices in their search box)
          Now show me somebody on the CDC advisory board who is more qualified than this woman who has a PHD in vaccinations, immunisation and toxicology who also used to be a pediatrician who was fed the same slies but woke up after doing her own research and a lot more study of biochemistry etc etc.
          Also you’ll find that CDC Doctors are heavilly afiliated with pharmasuitical and vaccine companies. In Australia there was a radio announcement that more people have had the flu this year thsn ever recorded so get your flu shot. The only problem with this is that more people hsve had the flu shot thsn ever before as well! So whst does basic logic and reasoning tell us ? P S even when it does work for some, they will spread it because instead of being at home and laying low for 1-2 weeks guess where they will be ? That’s right out and about for most of thst period of time spreading it to the most vulnerable and if that’s not enough, the CDC contradict themselves by advising to give the flu shot to those with cancer and hsving Chemo Therapy etc hmm whst did they say about herd immunity ?
          So you see most Anti vaxee were pro compulsory vaxxes or on the fence at one stage before doing more esearch thst you could immagine, (Often because they have been or witnessed their loved one become vax injured or die with the hospital denying the corrolation as obviously don’t want to be liable) unless they had a solid understanding of biochemistry as well as what’s in a vaccine, which most Doctors are clueless about. While a Chef has to know all the ingredients in a cup cake in case of alergies, Doctors don’t hsve to know the ingredients in a vaccine which even to a child doesn’t make any sense at all.
          Folow the large money trail and find some some real research where they don’t mostly quote the CDC unless where the CDC is contradicting itself on their own website.

          • Kevin

            Damn typos on phone with fat thumbs grrrrrrr

      • JGC

        To protect them against Hepatitis B infection, Josh. From the CDC (bold for emphasis):

        Hepatitis B virus (HBV) is a bloodborne and sexually transmitted virus. Rates of new infection and acute disease are highest among adults, but chronic infection is more likely to occur in persons infected as infants or young children. Before hepatitis B vaccination programs became routine in the United States, an estimated 30%–40% of chronic infections are believed to have resulted from perinatal or early childhood transmission, even though <10% of reported cases of hepatitis B occurred in children aged <10 years (1). Chronically infected persons are at increased lifetime risk for cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) and also serve as the main reservoir for continued HBV transmission.

        • ciaparker2

          This CDC study in the chart at the bottom shows that before the vaccine started to be given to all newborns in 1991 (unless their parents circled the wagons around their baby to protect him from being given this most dangerous of vaccines), the rate of hep-B in children under one was less then one in 100,000.

          http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5125a3.htm

          The only infants at risk are those whose mothers are positive for hep-B, and in those cases the vaccine should probably be given (with permission). In all other cases the vaccine is much more of a danger to the infant than the disease, which is not spread through casual transmission. The only proven means of transmission is through blood and body fluids, like AIDS. The virus may be present in saliva, but there has been no case in which this was the proven means of transmission, and very few adults carry the hep-B virus. Even fewer of them smear their own blood into an open wound in a newborn.
          The disease IS very dangerous in young infants, but those born to uninfected mothers are not at risk. All women are routinely screened for hep-b during pregnancy. Among children and adults, the vast vast majority of those who contract it recover from hep-B in a few weeks or months, with permanent immunity. It’s only among those who have compromised their liver with alcoholism or drug addiction that hep-B tends to cause cirrhosis and liver cancer. Hep-B has never been a big problem in the US. The vaccine, on the other hand, has killed many infants and disabled many more, especially with autism, as in my baby. Read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism. She testified at the congressional safety hearing on this vaccine in May 1999 about her own son’s encephalitic reaction to this vaccine, again, given without permission or his parents’ knowledge.

          • JGC

            “the rate of hep-B in children under one was less then one in 100,000.”

            Do you have some mistaken idea that it is only possible to become infected with hepatitis B if one is under one year in age?

            The chart also presents the incidence of diagnosed and reported infections in children as a function of age, not the actual incidence of the disease in children (recall the most hepatitis B infections in children are asymptomatic and are not diagnosed/reported).

            “very few adults carry the hep-B virus”

            That’s in large part because we’ve been vaccinating both children and adults against it since 1991, cia, resulting in an 82% decrease in the number of new infections annually. Even with vaccination your ‘very few’ translates to almost 2.2 million people with chronic hep b infections.

            “The vaccine, on the other hand, has killed many infants and disabled many more, especially with autism, as in my baby”

            Your evidence that hepatitis B vaccination is causally associated with autism spectrum disorders would be what exactly, cia?

            Oh, wait…that’s right. You don’t have any.

          • ciaparker2

            No, there have never been many adults with hep-B in the US.

          • JGC

            “No, there have never been many adults with hep-B in the US, and it has always been almost inexistent in children.”

            This simply isn’t true, cia. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. In the US, for example, there are about 2 million adults with chronic hep B, about 30% of whom acquired the infection as children.

            “During 1990–2002, the incidence of acute hepatitis B declined 67%, from 8.5 per 100,000 population (21,102 total cases reported) to 2.8 per 100,000 population (8,064 total cases reported)”

            Those are rates of new infections, cia–it doesn’t capture the number of adults and children with asymptomatic chronic infections already within the population.

            “It has never been shown that they got it as children rather than as adults, but in order to sell the vaccine to everyone, medical authorities like to say that it may be that they got it as children.”

            Not only has it been shown that children get hepatitis B infections, it’s also been shown tht 1) the majority of children infected are asymptomatic and 2) those who become infected as children are far more likely (up to 90% more likely) to develop chronic hep b than those who are infected as adolescents/adults.

            What journal is When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism published in, in what year? I can’t find it indexed on PubMed.

          • FallsAngel

            Infants who get Hep B have a 90% chance of getting chronic Hep B which can lead to liver cancer in later life. Persons with chronic HBV infection are at 12 to 300 times higher risk of
            hepatocellular carcinoma than noncarriers. An estimated 1,000 to 1,500
            persons die each year in the United States of hepatitis B-related liver
            cancer. But what’s a few liver cancer cases, eh cia?

          • ciaparker2

            But women are screened for hep-B during pregnancy. Less than one percent have it. So it’s not common, and both women and their doctors know ahead of time if the infant will be at risk of contracting hep-b. These infants should probably get the vaccine, even though it is dangerous for them as well. But infants born to healthy mothers are at no risk of getting hep-B, so why disable and kill so many to prevent a disease which wouldn’t occur in them until some of them grow up to become alcoholics or drug addicts, and get it at that time?

          • Mike Stevens

            “But women are screened for hep-B during pregnancy. Less than one percent have it. So it’s not common, and both women and their doctors know ahead of time if the infant will be at risk of contracting hep-b.”

            No Cia, only 95% of pregnant women were screened for Hep B in pregnancy, meaning 6000 infants were born with Hep B every year to apparently healthy mothers who nobody expected or knew would have Hep B.
            https://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/hbv/vaccchildren.htm

          • FallsAngel

            Screenings can produce false negatives; not all women get screened (some have no prenatal care, some may refuse); you can be negative at the time of screening and get Hep B during pregnancy, etc. The vaccine is not dangerous, that is a LIE. Infants born to healthy mothers are at risk of getting Hep B in all the other ways one gets Hep B including living with someone with it. That can change overnight.

          • Mike Stevens

            I don’t think Cia cares that 90% of infants born with Hep B will likely become carriers, and that 25% will die later in life from liver failure.

            “No big deal” she usually says.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            How much of that is mediated by lifestyle choices? 1600 people die each and every day from cancer, so 1500 a year is a tiny fraction.

          • FallsAngel

            Infants don’t have any “lifestyle choices”. Yes, let’s blow off 1500 cases of cancer a year. I mean, who cares?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Myopic focus on 1500 supposedly preventable cases of cancer is infantile thinking

            What matters are the RELATIVE risks.

            Dr Jane Orient, Executive Director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) stated that:

            An independent review of the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events
            Reporting System – the national database maintained in the US to track
            and study vaccine reactions) data; publications by governmental,
            pro-vaccine, and anti-vaccine groups; and a sample of the medical
            literature leads to the following conclusions:

            For most children, the risk of a serious vaccine reaction may be 100 times greater than the risk of hepatitis B.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Is that the same VAERS database that also has reports that vaccines turned someone into the Incredible Hulk and another person into Wonder Woman?

            Anyone can add a report to VAERS. It doesn’t need to prove causation – or even be true. It can be as tenuous as “a friend of a friend heard this guy saying down the pub that his Mother’s friend’s son hear that someone had a bad reaction to a vaccine”. Mining the VAERS database for proof that vaccines are bad is the scientific equivalent of dumpster diving.

          • FallsAngel

            If you had to do an appeal to authority, you sure as H*ll could have found a better one that this non-authority from a whack organization like the AAPS. Are you under the impression this organization is a legitimate professional org? Ah, no. This is a whack group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons
            “The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a politically conservative non-profit association founded in 1943 to “fight socialized medicine and to fight the government takeover of medicine. . . . While AAPS describes itself as “non-partisan”, the organization is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative. The AAPS opposed the Social Security Act of 1965 which established Medicare and Medicaid, arguing that “the effect of the law is evil and participation in carrying out its provisions is, in our opinion, immoral”, and encouraged member physicians to boycott Medicare and Medicaid. AAPS argues that individuals should purchase medical care directly from doctors, and that there is no right to medical care. The organization requires its members to sign a “declaration of independence” pledging that they will not work with Medicare, Medicaid, or even private insurance companies.

            AAPS opposes mandated evidence-based medicine and practice guidelines, criticizing them as a usurpation of physician autonomy and a fascist merger of state and corporate power driven by the pharmaceutical industry. AAPS also opposes abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception. AAPS also opposes electronic medical records as well as any “direct or de facto supervision or control over the practice of medicine by federal officers or employees.”

            On October 25, 2008 the AAPS website published an editorial implying that Barack Obama was using Neuro-linguistic Programming, “a covert form of hypnosis”, to coerce people to vote for him in his 2008 presidential campaign. . . .

            Advocacy of non-mainstream or scientifically discredited claims

            Articles and commentaries published in the journal have argued a number of non-mainstream or scientifically discredited claims, including:

            that human activity has not contributed to climate change, and that global warming will be beneficial and thus not a cause for concern;

            that HIV does not cause AIDS;

            that the “gay male lifestyle” shortens life expectancy by 20 years.

            that there is a link between abortion and the risk of breast cancer.

            that there are possible links between autism and vaccinations.

            Now this Jane Orient is obviously ignorant of what VAERS says on its main page, that is:

            “Please note that VAERS staff follow-up on all serious and other selected adverse event reports to obtain additional medical, laboratory, and/or autopsy records to help understand the concern raised. However, in general coding terms in VAERS do not change based on the information received during the follow-up process. VAERS data should be used with caution as numbers and conditions do not reflect data collected during follow-up. Note that the inclusion of events in VAERS data does not imply causality.

            Now would you like to discuss infant lifestyle choices some more? Which breast they like better, things like that?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            It is not so much an appeal to authority as basic support for the position that we need to weigh relative risks and benefits. Other than attacking this organization’s credibility, do you have an independent assessment of the relative risks and benefits of the medical intervention?

            I am not sure what you are on about with this infant lifestyle choices crap. Lifestyle choices we make as adults influence how dis-ease presents and the course it take.

          • FallsAngel

            Well, you’re the one who brought up lifestyle choices in infants, your job to explain.

            FA: “Infants who get Hep B have a 90% chance of getting chronic Hep B which can lead to liver cancer in later life.”

            Scott Michael: “How much of that is mediated by lifestyle choices?”

            I mean, I know the game you’re playing; it’s called deflection.

            This lady is no expert, she’s not a pediatrician or family practitioner, and you wouldn’t have mentioned her name or her whackaloon organization if you hadn’t thought I’d consider her and it some sort of authority on vaccines. She’s misusing VAERS, which is common with anti-vaxers.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            FA: “Infants who get Hep B have a 90% chance of getting chronic Hep B which can lead to liver cancer in later life.”

            Scott Michael: “How much of that is mediated by lifestyle choices?”

            Let me please clarify:
            As in, how much of their risk in developing liver cancer LATER IN LIFE is mediated by their lifestyle choices? In other words, if they are an alcoholic, drug abuser, presumably they have higher risk yes?

            Or are you inferring that if a child gets Hep B it’s a done deal that they get liver cancer? Because that is not what your sentence implies – is says “can” lead, not “will” lead.

            It comes back, again, to a risk / benefit analysis.

            I haven’t seen any math or numbers from you with respect to probabilities of various outcomes. Only death statistics, which in a vacuum, are not useful in assessing relative risk.

          • FallsAngel

            90% of these infants get chronic Hepatitis B. Chronic Hep B is an independent risk factor for developing liver cancer. You want to blame the cancer on alcohol, but that is a separate risk factor.

            https://www.cancer.org/cancer/liver-cancer/causes-risks-prevention/risk-factors.html

          • FallsAngel

            Since you’re being such an arrogant horse’s patoot, you can show me the risk for this vaccine, from a reputable source, not VAERS reports, or so woo website.

          • FallsAngel

            Here’s a little more from that link above: “Worldwide, the most common risk factor for liver cancer is chronic
            (long-term) infection with hepatitis B virus (HBV) or hepatitis C virus
            (HCV)
            . These infections lead to cirrhosis of the liver (see above) and
            are responsible for making liver cancer the most common cancer in many
            parts of the world.”

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            True informed consent is based on patients understanding the following:

            a) What are the risks of the vaccine?

            b) What are the risks of doing nothing?

            Again, in order to do this very basic risk assessment one needs to understand
            (at a minimum):

            -the frequency (and type) of severe adverse reactions to the vaccine

            – the baseline risk of the illness one is trying to prevent (risk of contracting as well as subsequent risk of severe adverse events)

            – and the reduction in that risk (ie the benefit) that is gained by employing the medical intervention (vaccine)

            I have asked if anyone has seen this very basic analysis on Hep B and nobody has been forthcoming. I can only assume you are not aware of it, or choose to purposely obfuscate the issue.

            Saying Hep B is a “risk factor” adds very little to the discussion. If you are able to answer the questions above, I am happy to listen. I will crunch the numbers myself when I have time.

          • FallsAngel

            This coming from someone who thinks VAERS reports show causation and the AAPS is a reliable source. Dunning-Kruger to the max, with a huge dose of arrogance.

          • AutismDadd

            FalseAngel is batshit crazy

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Yeah – it’s not even worth it to try and talk to these folks. I don’t know if they are paid agitators, or just stuck in a ‘skeptic blog’ echo chamber. Probably a combination of both.

            The “skeptics” have a convenient retort for any evidence we present or ask for – there is literally nothing to be gained from engaging in a conversation with “skeptics”; they will simply engineer the discussion as to fit within their existing belief system. It’s a waste of energy – time is better spent sharing information with people that haven’t really investigated the issue yet.

          • AutismDadd

            I call it Blind Faith Syndrome. they talk in circles, parrot, and ignore evidence while demanding you provide some. They think anyone wanting vaccines to be safe and effective is a cult member. Yet we are told they are safe and effective by their cult…

          • Jonathan Graham

            The “skeptics” have a convenient retort for any evidence we present

            …or the fact that people like myself have a logically valid and internally consistent model for weighing evidence is often troublesome for people like yourself who seem to rely on emotional appeals and semantic games.

            …and if you could only spend a paltry amount of time fact checking your posts I probably wouldn’t even bother replying.

          • Jonathan Graham

            time is better spent sharing information with people that haven’t really investigated the issue yet.

            So, if I read you correctly. You think your time is best spent attempting to trick and bully people who are not prepared for it?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            “time is best spent attempting to trick and bully people”

            Psychological projection is a theory in psychology
            in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious
            impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their
            existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

            Please provide evidence of my bullying and/or trickery.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Please provide evidence of my bullying and/or trickery.

            Gladly, shall we start with trickery?:

            Nonsense – it’s called giving the accused a fair trial

            Trickery: Change of subject

            Yes, so the prosecution wouldn’t call the eyewitness but the DEFENSE WOULD.

            Trickery:Change of subject

            DNA evidence by itself is circumstantial

            Trickery:Irrelevant

            To say that no study needs to be done because Kaiser “has the data” is total bullshit. If for no other reason, the study needs to be done IN THE INTEREST OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

            Trickery:Change of subject

            The “skeptics” have a convenient retort for any evidence we present

            Trickery:Vague unsupported statement.

            A vaccination is an invasive medical procedure

            Trickery: Poorly defined.

            The Nuremberg Code’s first principle is voluntary consent,

            Trickery: Improper use of support.

            you admit that know nothing about the Hannah Poling case

            Trickery: Restating incorrectly

            yet feel qualified to denounce and marginalize people expressing concern about vaccine injuries

            Trickery: Vague.

            So are you saying you know nothing about the Hannah Poling case or are you just refusing to answer?

            Trickery: False dichotomy.

            ave you ever considered responding to the question that was asked

            Trickery: Question was answered. Bonus Trickery: You have many times refused to answer questions of mine.

            but it’s not relevant in making the decision.

            Trickery: Is is under most nominal value functions.

            Such a coincidence to find One Other Person Is Typing, and Brian and Mike Stevens and Jonathan Graham

            Trickery: Implying conspiracy when there is a simple non-conspiratorial answer.

            parotting pro-vaxx propaganda

            Trickery: Accusation without evidence, all my posts are original.

            but in aggregate they are AGNOSTIC

            Trickery:Lie. Insurance cares about aggregate costs/

            Their competitors also have to raise premiums to offset rising costs, so there is no competitive disadvantage

            Trickery:Misunderstanding context.

            NIH has basically concluded that repeated flu vaccines weaken the immune system in children and make them far more susceptible to flu strains that are not covered in the annual harvest dose.

            Trickery:Misrepresenting study.

            Do you and your disqus friends just descend like locusts to harass and ridicule parent of vaccine-injured children?

            Bullying.

            If that’s the only conclusion you draw, then you are clearly a paid shill.

            Bullying.

            can you do me a favor and tell me what the latest pro-pharm propaganda spin is on the Hannah Poling case? Thanks in advance.

            Trickery: Several fallacies here.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            WOW.

            Yes, I must confess to a bit of trickery – I said fetch the evidence little doggie and off you ran. I knew you would not be able to resist. Suggest you view my avatar and consider what really drives such dysfunctional, irrational behavior.

            Good god man – how much time did you waste going through my comments on this thread (and others) copying and pasting them (with no context btw) in an effort to ‘prove’ something?

            When you mentioned the other day that you were “demolishing my arguments” – I realized I was conversing with a child in a man’s body. One that is easily manipulated btw.

            I won’t “bully” further – truth is I feel sorry for you if you feel such time is well spent. If your 11,000+ disqus comments (and counting) are truly filling whatever void exists in your life – if pounding on the keyboard for hours on end “demolishing arguments” gives you fulfillment, purpose and contentment – then certainly continue.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes, I must confess to a bit of trickery

            So like I said the evidence suggests that you will try and trick the unprepared. Doesn’t exactly make you very ethical. Thanks for admitting this.

            I said fetch the evidence little doggie and off you ran. I knew you would not be able to resist.

            Awww how cute it’s the “I knew you would” ploy. The fact is supporting an argument when requested is part of the social contract involved in discussion. Just like fact checking your own.
            Two things you avoid doing which are also parts of your unethical behavior here.

            Good god man – how much time did you waste going through my comments on this thread

            See if you click “replies” in your console you can see all of the chronologically. Then use “find” in your browser. I’d estimate that was less than five minutes but that’s just because your posts are so replete with deceptive things. 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, we have been over this before…
            When kids get Hep B it is asymptomatic. They are not diagnosed with “Acute Hepatitis B” because the infection is completely silent, and deadly, since it cannot be cleared by the immune system, and over 90% of these children will get chronic hepatitis B, and 25% will die a horrible death from liver failure later in life.
            Drug use and alcohol have nothing to do with it. Nothing.

            And no, we don’t need to read what some deluded woman wrote in a book about her child supposedly getting autism from a Hep B vaccine – because we can see the facts for ourselves, and not rely on medically unverified anecdotes like you do.

          • Mike Stevens

            “No, there have never been many adults with hep-B in the US, and it has always been almost inexistent in children.”

            Do you enjoy lying all the time, Cia?
            An estimated 850,000–2.2 million persons in the United States have chronic hepatitis B virus infection.
            http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs204/en/

          • ciaparker2

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hep.22975/pdf
            In 1990 the number of hospital deaths from HBV related causes in the US was about 700. In 2004 it was 2,500. Nearly all of these people who died of HBV were alcoholics or drug addicts. Do we really want to disable thousands of newborns for life every year in order to potentially save people from the results of their unhealthy life choices? The vaccine has been recommended for decades for alcoholics and drug addicts, but most of them don’t want to take it. Am I happy that my infant was disabled for life by the vaccine, given without permission, which caused vaccine encephalitis and autism in her?

          • JGC

            Did you even read the article’s conclusion section?

            “HBV remains an important cause of acute and chronic liver disease in the United States. The incidence of new infections with HBV has decreased dramatically in the past two decades, largely due to widespread vaccination programs in children as well as safer needle-using practices and universal precaution in healthcare as well as exclusion of blood donors with infection.”

            “Do we really want to disable thousands of newborns for life every year in order to potentially save people from the results of their unhealthy life choices?”
            Your evidence that thousands of newborns become disabled as the result of receiving hepatitis B vaccinations each year would be what, exactly? I ‘ve asked you this question previously but you’ve failed to provide any substantive response–any chance you’ll be willing to do so now?

          • ciaparker2

            Great. It went down from very low to less. Please read Patti White’s testimony as to how the hep-B mandate for newborns had caused an avalanche of disabled children entering kindergarten starting exactly five years after the mandate went into effect in 1991. The choice is ours. Disable a thousand infants in order to keep one adult from getting hep-B thirty years later because he didn’t want to get the vaccine when he became an alcoholic or drug addict. Of course there IS a lot of money to be made in pushing the vaccine, but the families of the disabled children get none of it, so it’s academic for us.

          • JGC

            How exactly did Patti White establish a causal association between introduction of the hep b vaccine and an increase in the number of disabled children entering kindergarten five years later? It is, I trust, based on something more than a perceived temporal association and a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy (seasoned perhaps with a large scoop of “But what else could it have been?”).
            Where exactly is the money to be made in pushing vaccines for doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, the FDA, the CDC, the WHO, the IOM, etc., and how does it compare to the money that’s to be made in marketing or providing treatments for people who become infected by the diseases vaccines protect against?

          • ciaparker2

            Beneath contempt.

          • JGC

            How is inquiring about how Patti White determined what she believed to be true (that an increase in the enrollment of disabled kindergartners in 1996 was causally associated with the introduction of the hepatitis b vaccine in 1991) actually was true contemptuous?

          • Mike Stevens

            Why don’t you answer the qustion Cia?
            It is a perfectly reasonable one on a topic that you yourself raised.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Come on, Cia, these are basic problems with your position. Surely you thought them through prior to making the claim?

          • shay simmons

            How is pointing out problems with her testimony beneath contempt? You say you want parents to question everything but this evidently does not extend to the claims made by people who agree with you.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Plus, insert standard question about Big Insura/Countries with socialised medicine.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            “Where exactly is the money to be made in pushing vaccines for doctors,
            hospitals, insurance companies, the FDA, the CDC, the WHO, the IOM,
            etc., and how does it compare to the money that’s to be made in
            marketing or providing treatments for people who become infected by the
            diseases vaccines protect against?”

            The current vaccine program is running on inertia or we do things because this is how they’ve been done for years. Even if it was more profitable for them, the idea that they would abandon the program, hope the diseases come back so that they can then develop drugs to treat them is ridiculous. How much money would they make giving measles patients Vitamin A – Zero. How much do they make giving 95% of their
            captive customers MMR-II. More than zero. And it’s like an annuity –
            every year they get new customers like clockwork with no marketing costs and no liability. Its a nice racket they have.

            Besides the diseases are often benign and ACUTE in nature. Big Pharm makes its real money by treating SYMPTOMS of CHRONIC disease.

            Secondly, it is flawed assumption to believe that these diseases would come roaring back. How much money is pharm raking in treating scarlet fever, typhoid fever, cholera, typhus, etc? Somehow these diseases quietly went away – no vaccines required.

          • JGC

            ” How much money would they make giving measles patients Vitamin A – Zero”

            As Vitamin A supplementation isn’t effective at preventing measles infections, why are you suggesting it could be used as an alternative to MMR vaccination?.

            “How much do they make giving 95% of their captive customers MMR-II?”

            In 2016 Merck’s total sales for MMR-II was $353 million as compared to total sales for all products of $39.8 billion, so MMR-II sales accounted for just less that 1% of all revenue –and that is revenue, remember, and not profit.

            I’m unaware that any of the diseases on the recommended childhood vaccine schedule that could rationally be classified as ‘benign’–which do you believe qualify as such? As for the diseases being ‘acute’ rather than chronic, how is that relevant to the discussion? Is there some reason you believe we should only develop vaccines targeting chronic conditions?

            “Secondly, it is flawed assumption to believe that these diseases would come roaring back.”
            Why ‘assumption’, when we observe the incidence of infections to increase significantly whenever vaccine uptake against those diseases falls?
            The diseases you mention did not’ go away quietly’: they went away as the result of the development of effective methods of treatment or methods of prevention other than vaccination.. A vaccine against scarlet fever in fact, was in development only to be abandoned once antibiotics effective against it became available.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            According to the WHO, Vitamin A is effective in reducing complications of measles – but you know that already.

            MMR revenue is an annuity – they need do nothing at this point. No further testing, no liability to lawsuits, etc. There’s no rational reason for them to change what they are doing.

            The measles is benign in the vast majority of cases. Are going to quote global death statistics which include people living in abject poverty, filthy shantys in India – routinely drinking water downstream of some one defecating as evidence that the measles is somehow equivalent to the Black Death.

            Maybe you should watch the Brady Bunch episode where everybody gets the measles. Stop the insanity!

          • JGC

            “According to the WHO, Vitamin A is effective in reducing complications of measles – but you know that already.”

            It is seen to reduce complications in people already infected with measles who are also deficient in vitamin A.

            If you’re infected with measles but not deficient in vitamin A supplementation is of no utility and vitamin A supplementation does nothing to protect against becoming infection if you exposed to measles: supplementation does not represent a valid substitute for routine MMR vaccination.

            “MMR revenue is an annuity – they need do nothing at this point. No further testing, no liability to lawsuits, etc.” What evidence argues that further testing is necessary, particularly in light of the fact that post-marketing surveillance remains in operation?

            Note also that as vaccine manufacturers are still liable for manufacturing and labeling defects, your suggestion they don’t have to worry about litigation isn’t accurate.

            “Are going to quote global death statistics which include people living in abject poverty, filthy shantys in India – routinely drinking water downstream of some one defecating as evidence that the measles is somehow equivalent to the Black Death.”
            So your position is that any disease that does not kill 100% of all those infected qualifies as benign, even if it leaves many of them suffering from lifelong adverse consequences (like the blindness, deafness, intellectual and development disabilities associated with measles infections or the flaccid paralysis associated with polio) “benign”?
            With respect to the latter, did the invention of the iron lung, which allowed people who contracted polio to survive even though suffering from paralysis for life) move the disease from the ‘serious’ column into the ‘benign’ column?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            “So your position is that any disease that does not kill 100% of all those infected qualifies as benign” –

            Yes – that’s exactly my position, Oh wait, it’s not because it’s completely ridiculous only a wingnut like yourself would imagine such a position and put forth such a STRAWMAN.

            Are you capable of typing even a few sentences without making ridiculous strawman arguments?

            Are you capable of arguing ANY position at all without making strawman arguments?

            Do you resort to strawman arguments because your intent is not to seek truth but to obfuscate the truth?

            Those are rhetorical questions – the answer is obvious.

            Oh and throwing in the old “iron lung” at the end there- nice. I’m disappointed that you haven’t yet conjured up ad hominems about Wakefield and McCarthy yet. Come on JGC – gotta hit all those talking points – you’re slacking.

          • AutismDadd

            JGC is Strawman

          • Well_Actualy

            Hey look. Skepticalofskeptics has just learnt the word strawman and is trying to use it in as many times as he can whether it’s valid or not.

            But in a discussion about logical fallacies, you missed this one: the fallacy fallacy. Just because someone uses a fallacious argument, doesn’t mean that argument is incorrect.

            Instead on just throwing around your favourite word with abandon because you like the sound of it, how about you actually counter the argument with actual facts? If you can.

          • JGC

            It’s not a strawman argument: it’s a classic mode of argument known as reductio ad absurdum. You were the one who claimed that whether a disease is benign or otherwise could be determined by considering morbidity and comparing the figures to those for bubonic plague, not me (“Are going to quote global death statistics which include people living in abject poverty, filthy shantys in India – routinely drinking water downstream of some one defecating as evidence that the measles is somehow equivalent to the Black Death”).

            Having agreed no that deaths due to a disease is not the only relevant metric for characterizing it as benign or otherwise, by what rational argument could measles, which in the United States prior to vaccination infected almost all children by the age of 15 and caused 3 to 4 million infections each year resulting in 400 to 500 deaths, 48000 hospitalizations, and 4000 cases of encephalitis often resulting in severe and lasting disabilities (blindness,deafness, mental disabilities, etc) be considered to be ‘benign’>

          • familyvonbarnhart

            Our un-vacc child (A) caught the measles from a recently vaccinated child (B) in our play group. (B) was responding to his recent vaccine with a fever & light rash. Our child (A) developed the classic rash about 2 weeks later (normal measles incubation time) that moved from upper body to lower body. He was diagnosed with measles. Since our child (B) was very young, he had no contact to other possible virus exposures (too young for school, I don’t take children shopping- so no germ-y carts, no exposure at that age to strangers, never in vehicle other than ours, no older siblings carrying germs from school, mom is stay-at-home, dad had his own office). Although we quarantined (B) to house, there were no other symptoms (No fever, no respiratory symptoms). As you stated @Scott Michael, I would agree that it was “benign”.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Thanks for sharing your story. Another factoid that is conveniently left out of the discussion is that the recently vaccinated can often shed and actually spread the disease.

          • Jonathan Graham

            There is considerable evidence that the MMR does not shed. Even if they did, what would they shed? They would shed an attenuated virus. What is the most common response to contact with this attenuated virus. Immunization. Assuming familyvonbarnhart had the MMR they are probably mistaken.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Show the evidence.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Off the top of my head? Attempts to capture vaccine strain virus from RNA wastes has never succeeded. On the other hand you can do this with mumps viral material from the MMR.

            Not to mention that, as discussed whatever hypothetical shedding would happen the strain would be exceptionally unlike to infect anyone.

          • FallsAngel

            Where’d this happen? I want to look it up. If the story is really true, it’s not surprising that (A) had a mild disease b/c he had a mild exposure, not exposure to the wild virus.

          • FallsAngel

            OMG, the Brady Bunch argument! Seriously? You get your medical information from lame 60s comedies?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            The Brady Bunch comment was aimed at putting some perspective on the fear-mongering of present day mainstream media. To my knowledge, there was no medical information discussed. Just the whole crew getting a rash and have a good ‘ole laugh about it.

            Forgive me for trying to help you not be so afraid.

            You can now return to your regularly scheduled ‘programming’.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, stuff it! If you’re dumb enough to get medical advice from “The Brady Bunch”, think VAERS reports prove causation, and think a nutcake right-wing political AIDS denying medical group has the Holy Grail on vaccines, you have another think coming. You’re the one who’s afraid. . . of vaccines.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Rational risk assessment:

            Which is more likely to give you encephalitis in the United States (MMR or measles)?
            https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html
            Number of measles cases by year since 2010
            2010 63

            2011 220

            2012 55

            2013 187

            2014 667

            2015 188

            2016* 70

            Average Annual Cases of Measles 207

            US Population M’s 320,000,000
            Odds of contracting Measles (1YR) 1,544,828 to 1 (320,000,000 / 207)
            *Odds of contracting Measles (10 YRs) 154,483 to 1
            Odds of encephalitis once having contracted measles 1000 to 1 (per CDC)
            Odds of contracting Measles AND subsequently having encephalitis 154,482,759 to 1
            Odds of encephalitis from MMR dose 1,000,000.00 to 1
            Odds of encephalitis from MMR (2 doses) 500,000 to 1

            Conclusion: in the United States, you are 309 times MORE likely to get encephalitis from the MMR vaccine that you are to get it from naturally occurring measles.

          • FallsAngel

            Is this the time to say “You idiot”? I guess you missed this post earlier today: http://disq.us/p/1koeeyn
            I’m going to edit Andrew’s words a little for this discussion:
            Your chart computation is completely bogus,- because it confuses an annual rate of disease with the total
            population. (What our economist friends call a stock and a flow.) A
            simplified, but far more correct, comparison would be annual illness to one year’s birth cohort.

            A birth cohort is about 4 million people, 1.25% of 320 million. That’s what your denominator should be. Now go do the problem again.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Thank you for sharing that link. It’s interesting that “Brian”, “One other Person That’s Typing”, and “Mike Stevens” are all very active on both vaccine discussions.

            For anybody that is interested you can see that thread here:
            https://www.babycentre.co.uk/blog/mum_stories/making-childhood-vaccination-compulsory/#comment-3427089215

            First of all, if you suggest I limit to just the birth cohort then I would also use only the annual incidence (instead of the incidences over 10 years). In which case the math looks like this:

            Average Annual Cases of Measles 207
            Birth Cohort 4,000,000
            Odds of contracting Measles (1YR) 19,310 to 1 (4,000,000 / 207)
            Odds of encephalitis once having contracted measles 1000 to 1 (per CDC)
            Odds of contracting Measles AND
            subsequently having
            encephalitis 19,310,345 to 1
            Odds of encephalitis from MMR dose 1,000,000.00 to 1
            Odds of encephalitis from MMR (2 doses) 500,000 to 1
            Conclusion: in the United States, you are 39 times MORE likely to get encephalitis from the MMR vaccine that you are to get it from naturally occurring measles.

            However, I reject the premise that the at risk population is only those under 1 year (or the birth cohort as Andrew states it) . The CDC recommends booster shots for everyone because they know immunity wanes.

            So assuming MMR lasts 10 years, than the true “at risk population” or ‘denominator’ is everybody who has never received MMR plus anybody over 12 years of age up to date on boosters minus those who have had the actual disease. I would say that population is significant higher than 4 million.

            If Andrew would like to disagree, I’d be interested to know why.

            Nevertheless, even with the numbers you suggested, in the United States, you are 39 times MORE likely to get encephalitis
            from the MMR vaccine that you are to get it from naturally occurring measles.

            Conclusion

            39

          • FallsAngel

            The CDC does not recommend a booster shot for measles vaccine. One dose gives about 95% of vaccinees immunity. Two doses, the current recommendation, ups that to about 97%. That is the reason for two doses, NOT waning immunity. Adults who have had one dose of vaccine who do not work in health care are considered sufficiently immunized.

            Encephalitis is not the only side effect from measles disease. The most common is otitis media, which can cause hearing loss. The most common cause of death, something we do NOT see with the vaccine, is measles related pneumonia.

            We get it; you’re afraid of vaccines.

          • FallsAngel

            So assuming MMR lasts 10 years

            You know what happens when you ass*ume. Actually, the only one at risk in this assumption is you. Measles vaccine immunity is considered lifelong.

            ETA: 26-33 years of immunity from measles vaccine and counting in this study.
            https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4d26/3f4fa49caecb6d0f7292f1b54c54176c3c55.pdf

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            You are a very mean spirited and angry person. I feel bad for you.

            And who’s we? You and “Brian”, “One other Person That’s Typing”, and “Mike Stevens” and others that have free time to spam multiple discussions with pro-vaxx propaganda? Seriously either you guys are angry and unemployed or this IS your employment.

            If immunity lasts for a lifetime, then booster shots would not be needed. Or are the booster shots just to raise more revenue?

            And if only 97% get immunity, we need to add 3% of the under 60 population to the at risk pool calculation. Either way, the math speaks for itself.

            Playing the fear card you are certainly coming off as a propagandist.

            What I am not afraid of is the measles.

            Average annual lightning strike deaths in the US: 51
            Average measles deaths: 0

            You may now return to your fearmongering. Thanks for reading.

          • FallsAngel

            You’re the one pushing FUD-fear, uncertainty and doubt.

            You should be afraid of measles. It can kill/maim you.

            First it was “VAERS reports”, which you are ignorant enough to think show causality; then it was your use of that ignorant physician’s political group as an authority on vaccines; then the Brady Bunch, then ignorant statistics about measles vaccine; now lightning strikes.

            Afraid of shots, are you?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            I’m going to have to watch the Brady Bunch episode myself just to make a point.

          • FallsAngel

            The second dose of measles vaccine is NOT a booster shot!

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            I can’t spend any more time spoon feeding you:

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/adult.html

            Adult schedule at link .

            Good luck.

          • FallsAngel

            I don’t need any luck from you. You clearly did not read the footnote:
            “Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination

            General information

            Adults born in 1957 or later without acceptable evidence of immunity
            to measles, mumps, or rubella (defined below) should receive 1 dose of
            measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR) unless they have a medical
            contraindication to the vaccine, e.g., pregnancy or severe
            immunodeficiency.

            Notes: Acceptable evidence of immunity to measles, mumps, or rubella
            in adults is: born before 1957, documentation of receipt of MMR, or
            laboratory evidence of immunity or disease. Documentation of healthcare
            provider-diagnosed disease without laboratory confirmation is not
            acceptable evidence of immunity.”

            IOW, if they have received the vaccine (and CDC says one dose is acceptable for adults who don’t work in health care) they don’t need it.

            Here’s another statement from CDC about MMR vaccine:

            “Some adults should also get MMR vaccine:
            Generally, anyone 18 years of age or older who was born after 1956 should get at least one dose of MMR vaccine, unless they can show that they have either been vaccinated or had all three diseases.”
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/mmr.html

            Do you get this? I doubt it.

          • Mike Stevens

            That would be primary MMR vaccination for someone who had never received MMR, or who had failed to complete the primary course of 2 vaccine shots.
            It seems as though the one needing spoonfed is you.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            What possible sense does it make to compare measles encephalitis from the vaccine vs wild measles, when wild measles has been reduced over 99.9% from the vaccine. The correct comparison is what the odds are, comparing vaccine-induced encephalitis to the pre-vaccine numbers. Using your 1:1000 figure, take the 750,000+ cases of measles in 1958 (including me), that would be 750 cases of encephalitis. That compares to 8, using the 1:500000 figure for vaccine-induced encephalitis. Which is more, 750 or 8?

            Suppose you were the only non-vaccinator on an isolated island. Then you would have all the the benefits with none of the risk. I agree. There’s no getting around that. Your calculation assumes that everyone else keeps vaccinating, the suckers, while you cruise along with most of the benefit and not even the small risks of vaccination. That’s what economists call “free riding”, although free-loading is the same idea. There’s no reason society should accept free riders. That’s why we impose side costs (such as no use of the schools) on this selfish behavior.

          • AutismDadd

            So economists are in charge of vaccines now?

          • Andrew Lazarus

            It’s rational, as I mention above, in the sense that free riding is often rational. Why should I spend money to treat my household waste, when the small quantity can just be dumped into the communal water supply with no ill effect?

            The problem is, this plan doesn’t scale. Neither does vaccination avoidance.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Iatrogenic induced brain damage is what’s not scalable.

            http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-puts-a-price-tag-on-the-lifetime-cost-of-autism/

            The lifetime cost of supporting just one person with autism can range from $1.4 million to $2.4 million

            Thanks for stopping by Andrew.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            OK, I guess you are giving up on defending free riding. That’s progress.

            There’s massive evidence that vaccines are not responsible for autism. Don’t forget how in the Special Master proceedings where you guys got to pick your best case, you ended up refuted by the family’s own home movies showing autistic behavior pre-MMR. And you lost the case.

            Vaccines appear to be the excuse for people who can’t accept that Junior wasn’t perfect; something external must have intervened. It’s the flip side of the same narcissism that refuses to believe the far more virulent diseases in the wild could do any permanent harm. (In real life, measles can cause permanent cognitive damage.)

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            The three best mechanisms.

          • AutismDadd

            Wow, you’ve been taking lying lessons

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            As soon as you have provided evidence that autism is “iatrogenic induced brain damage”, you’ll have the beginnings of a point. Until then….

          • Jonathan Graham

            This calculation also distributes risk evenly over being vaccinated or not. So it’s not a very good example of the true risk.

          • FallsAngel

            The Brady Bunch was lame entertainment, written by screenwriters with absolutely NO medical knowledge.

            You’re the one who is afraid of vaccines.

          • FallsAngel

            And you’re probably afraid of shots.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Sorry Scott – typhoid, cholera and typhus are still around.

            There are around 21 million cases of typhoid and 220,000 typhoid deaths globally every year. Cholera: 4.0 million cases, and 21 000 to 143 000 deaths. Typhus: 7,000 and 17,000 cases pa. Scarlet fever rarely kills nowadays thanks to antibiotics (darn that Big Pharma for saving lives).

            The death rates for these would be far higher if it wasn’t for the products of “Big Pharma” saving people’s lives.

            And it’s a myth that the pharmaceutical industry blocks all non-drugs. It’s not the pharmaceutical industry that prescribes treatment, it’s doctors. And they use what works. If that therapy is cheap, even better, as you can treat more people for the same money.

            2 examples: the gold standard treatment for eclampsia (which still kills thousands of mothers and babies every year) is magnesium sulphate (the mineral that’s in Epsom salts). It’s the benchmark against which all other therapies are measured.

            The other one is even more dramatic. Since it’s adoption in the 1980s it’s saved (as a conservative estimate) 50 million lives. It can cut the death rate of cholera from greater than 70% to less than 40% even before antibiotics. That treatment is rehydration therapy – salt, water, and sugar. Go one. Try and pretend those are patented and unavailable.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            How many of those deaths occur in the first world? 600 HUNDRED million people in India live in abject poverty don’t even have a toilet so your “global” statistics are well, worthless.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-17362837

          • Cardinal Fang

            Cholera, for which a vaccine has only recently become available (and hence which doesn’t have a mass vaccination program yet) kills tens of thousands
            Polio, which is spread by the same route as cholera (faecal-oral) – for which there are 2 effective vaccine that have been around for decades and have been part of a global vaccination program: almost eradicated. India has not had a case since 2011. The last 2 hold-outs are both countries where fundamentalists have anti-vaccine agenda backed up by the murder of health workers.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Deflection

            These diseases, which you correctly state are still occurring in the 3rd world, have massively declined in the 1st world.

            Per Wikipedia on typhoid fever “The disease is most common in India.[3] Children are most commonly affected.[3][4] Rates of disease decreased in the developed world in the 1940s as a result of improved sanitation”

            Yet when discussing ‘vaccine preventable diseases” vaccines get all the credit and basic things like sanitation get conveniently excluded from the discussion.

            When you go to Mexico and come back to the US with Montezuma’s Revenge, do you go awe shucks, I wish Mexico had more vaccines? or do you say, I wish Mexico had friggin clean water?

          • Cardinal Fang

            I agree – vaccines don’t deserve all the credit for reducing or eliminating rates of infectious disease. Better sanitation, nutrition, and the development of antibiotics helped a lot too. But when these factors are isolated and rates of infectious disease are scrutinised, the role of vaccines cannot be denied.

            One example is measles in the United States. When the first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963, rates of infection had been holding steady at around 400,000 cases a year. And while hygienic habits and sanitation didn’t change much over the following decade, the rate of measles infections dropped precipitously following the introduction of the vaccine, with only around 25,000 cases by 1970. Another example is Hib meningitis. According to CDC data, the incidence rate for this malady plummeted from 20,000 in 1990 to around 1,500 in 1993, following the introduction of the vaccine.

            And there’s the issue of polio – there is no polio in the slums of India and Bangladesh. Polio still exists in a small corner of Pakistan though. The conditions are very similar – poverty, lack of access to sanitation, poor nutrition. So why is it in one place and not others? Because in that corner of Pakistan, there are fundamentalists preventing people from being vaccinated. In India and Bangladesh, the vaccination programmes are covering people properly – result = no polio.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            When I looks at the measles charts, I cannot at this time, disagree with you. The incidence rates do seem to drop markedly after the vaccine came out. Although the death rates had already been declining for decades.

            The polio issue you mention, I have not looked into enough to have an informed opinion at this time.

          • Brian

            CF is correct about measles. Before the vaccine, pretty much everyone got it. The incidence rate hadn’t changed at all in over 50 years (as long as records were kept).

            Within just a few years of the vaccine being introduced, the incidence dropped over 90%, permanently, doing what sanitation, nutrition, and other medical interventions never could.

            Thanks vaccines!

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Yes IV fluids – also gets conveniently get left out of the discussion with respect to infectious disease, dehydration and death from severe diarrhea. Less people die, not just because of vaccines, but because we have better medical care.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Yeah – that damned Big Pharma who you’ve just been excoriating, giving people new advances that save people’s live.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            I’m pretty sure a Dr pioneered the use of IV fluids, so not sure why you rush to credit “Big Pharma”

          • Cardinal Fang

            And I’m sure that pharmaceutical companies developed new antibiotics and anti-virals – and vaccines, which also save live.

            A doctor did pioneer rehydration therapy. And the fact it’s used worldwide suggests that it hasn’t been suppressed by “Big Pharma”

          • AutismDadd

            Cardinal Fa*g is a minion

          • ~ liz ~

            Patti White is obviously an idiot who never heard of mainstreaming or the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).

            The percentage of school age children with disabilities is the same today as it was in 1970.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Please read Patti White’s testimony as to how the hep-B mandate for newborns had caused

            I did. Patti did no statistical analysis and has no training in that field. So in terms of evaluating statistical evidence am I correct that I should treat her as an average person in this department. If not, please list her publications and or work in the field of statistics or simply her research work employing statistics or her education.

          • ciaparker2

            Her experience was good enough for her to be invited to testify before a congressional committee convened to look at the dangers of the hep-B vaccine. That of Michael Belkin (baby daughter killed by vaccine) and Judy Converse (son reacted to it with encephalitis, as my daughter did) were also considered compelling enough to ask them to testify. You only want to invite the Merck representative. Go to hell.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Her experience was good enough for her to testify before a congressional committee

            So? We are talking about her ability to analyze data. Her experiences and ability are different things. For example I could put both you and I in front of a chalkboard with a mathematical problem on it. While I could solve it, you would literally require months of lectures just to understand it.

            So even though both of us were exposed to the same set of experiences your ability to interpret them was severely impaired.

            Similarly when it comes to statistical data it’s a valid question what ABILITY she has or if you’re going to claim that by virtue of being selected to speak before a congressional committee means she has some statistical credibility. Then you need to demonstrate the ability that a typical congressional committee has. How many of them have published in the field of statistics? How many of them are researchers that use statistics daily? How many of them are formally educated in statistics?

            You only want to invite the Merck representative

            I don’t care who speaks. However clearly if someone is going to testify they can’t be nearly totally ignorant of the field they are speaking about. Right?

            What Patti is discussing has almost nothing at all to do with her experiences and almost everything to do with the skill required to interpret her experiences correctly – statistical analysis.

            Until you can provide evidence that either she is qualified to do so, or that the committee is generally qualified to make that assessment. Then it’s reasonable to assume that ALL of these people are simply “average joes” in this respect.

          • shay simmons

            It went down from very low

            “It’s estimated that 33,000 kids (10 years of age and younger) born to moms who are not infected with HBV were infected each year prior to implementation of routine childhood hepatitis B vaccination. In addition, an estimated 12,000 kids born to HBV infected moms were infected each year before implementation of immunization programs to prevent perinatal HBV infections.”

            http://www.pkids.org/immunizations/HBV_kids_infect_kids.html

          • ciaparker2

            “My name is Patti White, R.N. I am a registered professional nurse and the district health services coordinator for a multi-school district. I am writing on behalf of the school nurses in our district. We have very grave concerns about the hepatitis B vaccine. (NB: this was at the congressional safety hearing on the hep-B vaccine in 1999. The surge in autistic kindergartners had started around 1996, when the infants who started getting the vaccine at birth entered school at five years old.)

            For the past three or four years our school districts have noted a significant increase in the number of children entering school with developmental disorders, learning disabilities, attention deficit disorders and/or serious chronic illness such as diabetes, asthma and seizure disorders. Each of the past four years has been worse than the year before. There is only one common thread we have been able to identify in these children: they are the children who received the first trial hepatitis B injections as newborns in the early 1990s.

            As the hepatitis B compliance rate in newborns has gone up in our community, so has the percentage of damaged children. This is very alarming. Because of having so many damaged children we have tried to find the long term clinical trials that ruled this vaccine “safe and effective”. We discovered through an exhaustive Medline search that the FDA based its decision
            to approve hepatitis B vaccine for administration in the first hours of a newborn baby’s life upon clinical trials and upon post-marketing surveillance studies in which patients and their doctors were asked to report any adverse effects they noticed within 4-5 days after each injection [4 days for SmithKline and 5 days for Merck].

            The problems being reported in increasing numbers as occurring after hepatitis B vaccination appear to be autoimmune and neurological in origin. Such problems take weeks to months to produce noticeable symptoms, and cannot be spotted in a 4-5 day observation period. These are the only clinical studies that have been done by Merck or SmithKline.There is not one
            long-term study that we could find.

            The CDC and FDA have no idea what the long term effects will be on the newly developing neurological and immune systems of the infants who are injected with this vaccine. They seem to only be concerned with denying the connection between these damaged children and the hepatitis B shot they received within a few hours of birth. The CDC even admits the lack of study and states they do not even know how long the vaccine will be effective. We found this amazing since the vaccine was developed for a population at risk for hepatitis B: IV drug users, high risk medical professionals and those who are involved in
            high risk sexual practices.

            In 1950 (before mass immunizations began), the USA had the third lowest infant mortality rate in the world. By 1986, the USA dropped to 17th place. In 1995 the USA dropped to 23rd and now the USA has dropped to the appalling position of 24th in the health of its children. But the USA is now first in vaccine compliance through government mandates. (Update: The
            latest report reveals that the United States has dropped to 31st in the world in the health of its children). See the Unicef report.

            The elementary grades are overwhelmed with children who have symptoms of neurological and/or immune system damage: epilepsy, seizure disorders, various kinds of palsies, autism, mental retardation, learning disabilities, juvenile-onset diabetes, asthma, vision /hearing loss, and a multitude of new conduct/behavior disorders.

            We have come to believe the hepatitis B vaccine is an assault on a newborns developing neurological and immune system. Vaccines are supposed to be making us healthier, however, in twenty-five years of nursing I have never seen so many damaged, sick kids. Something very, very wrong is happening to our children. The census of ill children treated in our health rooms each day has increased by 300% in only four years.

            In our last central district school nurse meeting we discussed whether the combination of so many viruses all at one time (hepatitis B vaccine commonly given at the same time of the DTaP, IPV, HiB, PCV, Var and MMR) is causing the
            infants immune system to be overwhelmed and unable to mount a sufficient defense response. We are advocating clinical studies to determine: Is the combination of all these viruses at one time an assault on an infant’s immune
            and neurological system that increases the chances for adverse reaction AND what are the long-term neurological and immune system responses to these vaccines. We are all continuing to research this issue and will be happy
            to share the many resources we have found with you. I hope you will do the same as you open up this issue.

            We have talked many times about the possible cause(s) of the continuing increase in pervasive developmental disorders (PDD), such as autism. From the literature we have found, we should expect a rate for PDD of about 2-5 in 10,000. In our community the rate in 1st and 2nd grade is about 1 in 150 and in kindergarten, 1 in 100.

            As school nurses, we have had many parents calling and asking how they can exempt their children from the hepatitis B vaccination (HBV). Many of them have spent long hours in study and research perplexed over this issue. For the
            past six months we have been studying documents, books and research articles published by internationally respected doctors and scientists that cause us grave concern. You must understand that we began this study to reassure our parents and show them the truth about how safe vaccines are.

            Unfortunately, our sincere, honest, dedicated study has caused a complete reversal of our once strongly held beliefs. Instead of being able to reassure the parents, we have found ourselves being drawn deeper and deeper into this unbelievable
            controversy over vaccines that is raging among physicians, scientists, researchers, parents, and the government. We pray you will have the courage to shine the light on this controversy through these hepatitis B hearings.

            My daughter’s own experience with the hepatitis B vaccine made me much more open-minded to the information we have been receiving from parents, teachers and other nurses in our community. I personally have had to research this
            on my own to determine if I have been enforcing a policy that is actually harming more children than it will ever help. I have spent countless hours reading books, vaccine-hearing testimony, research papers, medical journal articles and Internet web-sites from around the world. I did not come to my decision easily or lightly, I assure you. Twenty-five years of
            total belief in something does not shake that easily.

            I have repeated the well-rehearsed refrain “Be Wise; Immunize” thousands of times during those years and reassured countless parents that they were doing the right thing by vaccinating their precious children . . . even the ones who came
            to me with serious doubts and reservations. I will now have to live with that.

            We are all now faced with a moral dilemma: will we protect the “sacred cow of conventional vaccine philosophy” or will we stand up and speak out for the “health and well being of innocent children”? We choose children. We wonder, which will our government choose?

            Because the hepatitis B vaccine was developed for those at risk of disease, including IV drug users and sexually promiscuous individuals, efforts to require administration of the vaccine to most, if not all of the U.S. population is very controversial. The increasing number of adverse reaction reports connected with this vaccine exacerbates the controversy. The controversy
            stems to a great extent from our lack of understanding of the mechanisms of the immune response to the hepatitis B surface antigen and lack of long term follow-up of individuals who have received the vaccine. In a January 27, 1999 press release, the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) released figures which show that the number of hepatitis B vaccine-associated serious adverse event and death reports in American children under the age of 14 outnumber the reported cases of hepatitis B disease.

            During our research we discovered a copy of the grant proposal submitted recently to the National Institute of Health by Dr. B. S. Dunbar, who has worked in autoimmunity and vaccine development for over twenty years and was honored two
            years ago by the National Institute of Health. Dr. Dunbar is working with a team of veteran vaccine researchers from all over the world. Their grant is requested for the purpose of studying the hypothesis that: hepatitis B recombinant vaccine does cause adverse autoimmune reactions in genetically susceptible individuals. This study will also provide new insights into
            the predictability of determining adverse side effects of the hepatitis B vaccine in individuals at risk as related to their histocompatibility subtypes. Their study of auto-immune diseases/symptoms caused by the hepatitis B vaccine include: lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, vascular disorders, Guillain Barre syndrome, demyelinating disorders such as
            optic neuritis (blindness), Bell’s palsy, demyelinating neuropathy (multiple developmental disorders), multiple sclerosis, diabetes mellitus and chronic fatigue syndrome to mention the most common.

            This group of internationally respected vaccine researchers headed up by Dr. Dunbar also point out that, “The studies (for the approval of HPB) were not designed to assess serious, rare adverse events; the total number of recipients were too
            small; and the follow-up was too short to detect rare or delayed, serious, adverse reactions.” Finally they point out that “overall the number of examples of adverse neurologic outcomes following receipt of hepatitis B vaccine are of
            concern, particularly those resulting in demyelinating neurologic disease.” …

            Our own school district’s confidential health statistics show at least 20% of our children (K-3) have significant neurological damage and/or chronic illness. The last three years have shown acceleration in the numbers of children who are entering our schools with these “developmental disorders”. (Could these be the same infants who received the first trial doses of hepatitis B as only a few hour-old newborns?) As school nurses, working with these damaged children on a daily basis, we pray this is not true. If it is, the ramification to this generation of children is unthinkable!

            Should we not pause, call for a moratorium on these poorly tested, rapidly approved vaccines, and allow independent American physicians and researchers to study them before blindly injecting an experimental vaccine into an entire
            generation? (We have found the only ones declaring the vaccine’s safety are the ones who are making millions of dollars from its sales, whose employment depends on it or the ones being supported by the drug companies’ vast number of grants and fundings. The independent researchers seem to be coming up with an entirely different report.)

            Vaccine producers have nothing to lose since our U.S. Congress has made them immune from responsibility or liability for injuries caused from their vaccines. The push is on for them to create more and more vaccines. There are huge amounts of money being made by these people who no longer worry about the consequences of their inadequate clinical trials. The United States government has had to pay out over a billion dollars in damages to families who can prove their children have been damaged or killed by vaccines, and there are thousands more cases pending.

            We believe, as medical professionals, that we are doing a great disservice to our country by forcing government mandated vaccines on all children. Please research this and we pray you have the courage to speak out and tell the nation
            what you find. (These are the personal beliefs of the school nurses and do not necessarily reflect those of the school district.)”

            http://www.cssa-inc.org/Articles/Hepatitis_B.htm

          • Mike Stevens

            Anecdotal tosh… tl;dr.

        • akell47a

          “believed to have resulted” means somebody’s guess within the corrupt medical industry. A bad sign for the accuracy of this statement from the CDC, a criminal organization which has provided world dictators with over 80 forms of biochemical weapons outlawed by the Geneva Convention. Their own study found a correlation between vaccinating and autism, and they falsified their study to protect the big money. It’s time for people to snap out of the brainwashing and check out the actual data instead of appealing to untrustworthy and criminal authorities.

          • JGC

            No, “believed to have resulted” instead means “the current body of evidence supports the conclusion that”.

            Your evidence that the CDC has provided biochemical weapons to the leaders of more than 80 dictatorial regimes would be what exactly, cia?

            You do actually have some to offer, I hope–or is it in your other pants right next to your evidence that the risks associated with routine childhood vaccination exceed the risks associated with remaining vulnerable to infection that we’ve never see?

            “Their own study found a correlation between vaccinating and autism, and they falsified their study to protect the big money”
            What study would that be, and what actual evidence demonstrates the CDC falsified the study to achieve a preferred conclusion? You do actually have some–right?

          • AutismDadd

            Its not unbelievable though.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            I would imagine he is referring to the MMR study that William Thompson at the CDC was involved in.

          • Brian

            It probably isn’t that one, because tons of people have gone back and reviewed it after the 2014 “CDCWhistleblower” hoax, and thus far haven’t found any evidence that anything was falsified, etc..

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Source? I’ll wait here while you try to google an article from one of those skepical bullshitter sites.

        • Ron Roy
          • Cardinal Fang

            You and your internet memes Ron
            Still relying on them and the tactic of “some guy says something I agree with so it must be true” rather than actually producing evidence.

          • JGC

            Ron, you are aware that mercury poisoning and autism spectrum disorders are entirely different things, aren’t you?
            And that Thimerosal is no more mercury than table salt is metallic sodium?
            And that no casual association between routine childhood vaccination and either mercury poisoning or autism spectrum disorders has been shown to exist?
            (And clearly you’re unaware of Scopie’s law, or you would never have thought to post this.)

          • Ron Roy
          • JGC

            Ron, have you still not heard of Scopie’s law?

          • Ron Roy
          • Jonathan Graham

            Ron, have you ever considered reading what you post? Just wondering.

          • Ron Roy

            Yes and that post wasn’t addressed to you soooooo MYOB.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well apparently you didn’t read it very well. Also in case the idea of “public forum” isn’t clear to you it’s a place where anyone can respond to anyone.

          • shay simmons

            I’ve cited it to him, but he has a conveniently short memory.

      • shay simmons

        Hepatitis B virus spreads through blood or other body fluids that contain small amounts of blood from an infected person. If you have Hep B, youcan spread the virus even when you have no symptoms.

        Babies and children can get hepatitis B in the following ways:

        At birth from their infected mother
        Being bitten by an infected person
        By touching open cuts or sores of an infected person
        Through sharing toothbrushes or other personal items used by an infected person
        From food that was chewed (for a baby) by an infected person

        The virus can live on objects for 7 days or more. Even if you don’t see any blood, there could be virus on an object.

        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/child/hepb.html

        • ciaparker2

          At birth from their infected mother is the only realistic risk you named. All women are routinely tested for the virus during pregnancy, and if they don’t have it, as less than one percent does, their baby definitely doesn’t need this extremely dangerous vaccine. Children past infancy are at much less risk of a dangerous course of the disease if they get it, and will probably make a complete recovery, as most adults do, in weeks or months. So please provide confirmation of specific cases in which someone with hep-B bit an infant deeply enough to draw blood. Are you mistaking hep-B for rabies? If someone touched the open wounds of someone with hep-B (and why would they do that? I’ve never touched anyone’s open wound but my daughter’s skinned knees when she was little), they would then have to put their fingers in their mouth, and even then would be very unlikely to contract the disease. There have been a few cases of transmission through sharing toothbrushes, but, again, why would anyone do that? Why would an infected person leave his toothbrush where his toddler might get it and put it in his own mouth? And, in the few cases where this has happened, as in an English study, by the end of the study the children who had been infected had already recovered and were no longer hep-B positive. In the developed world we don’t chew food and then put it in a baby’s mouth. I certainly recommend that public health staff teach people in the Third World why that’s not a good thing to do.

          Now google it and read the hundreds of accounts of disabling or fatal reactions to the hep-B vaccine. Read Judy Converse’s book. Read Vaccine Epidemic, including the account of the horrific death of Layla Belkin from an encephalitic reaction to this vaccine. Every American positive for hep-B at the time he has young children around should try very hard not to share his toothbrush or razor blades with them. Not chew food and then put it in the baby’s mouth. It is not transmitted by sharing a drinking glass or sharing a bed.

          • shay simmons

            The Hep B vaccine is not dangerous.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8327313

            Hep B is very dangerous, especially to infants.

            https://www.thescientificparent.org/why-do-newborns-get-the-hepatitis-b-vaccine/

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, exactly. But Cia doesn’t care about death and disease in kids. She has made that quite plain.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, we have been over this ground before. There are numerous documented examples of horizontal transmission of Hep B through minimal exposures in the setting of families or children.
            Here are some examples: (see references 6,7,9,11)
            http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2100.pdf

            We also know from seroprevalence studies that Hep B aquisition in infancy and childhood is not a rare event, since surveys indicate as many as 12,000 to 20,000 kids under the age of 10 would acquire Hep B every year (or they did until neonatal vaccination was introduced, when the rate plummeted by 95%).
            No-one is suggesting these kids were using drugs or having sex – the exposures came from other children or adult contacts through horizontal contact other than the usual primary routes of viral transmission.

          • ciaparker2

            Could you give me the link to the British study you put up four years ago? On children who caught hep-b at home? (Most of whom had recovered by the end of the study) I’d like to read it again.

            “would acquire” is the telling phrase. These hypothetical children with hep-b never showed any symptoms of hep-B and just lived their lives quite healthily, until health professionals thought it would be great if many of them might be hypothesized to have hep-B, although they never showed any symptoms until they were adult alcoholics or drug addicts. Then they’d get to justify shooting them all up with an extremely dangerous vaccine. No proof that they got it as children rather than adults. Just that many of them, when asked if they had gotten it through sharing drug needles or promiscuous sex, said No, why would you think that? And that was taken to PROVE that they had gotten it as children.

            And for some reason your seroprevalence studies don’t tell us how many children were positive for hep-B, but only how many children and young people up to the age of twenty were. And, of course, by the teen years many kids turn to alcohol, sex, and drugs, putting themselves at risk for hep-B. The fact that no study focused only on prepubescent children shows you that everyone in your line of work knew that very few children get it, but then they’d have no justification for shooting everybody up.

            And, again, hep-B usually runs its course in a matter of weeks or months, and then completely resolves. I put up a quotation from Harrison’s to that effect, and you said it was a textbook you had used in medical school. It’s usually only in, again, the alcoholics and drug addicts, who have put their liver at heightened risk through their addictions, that the hep-B is enabled to cause cirrhosis and liver cancer. Again, in a relatively small number of people.

          • Mike Stevens

            “And, again, hep-B usually runs its course in a matter of weeks or months, and then completely resolves.”

            Well acute Hep B does that in around 90-95% of cases. Some get fulminant Hep B and die (not that this outcome would bother you since you treat death from diseases so lightly), and 5% become carriers who will go on to get chronic Hep B.

            However, as we have discussed before, in infancy and childhood, over 90% of Hep B is entirely asymptomatic, in other words it doesn’t even register that the child is ill.
            90% of these infections do not clear, but become chronic, getting cirrhosis and chronic liver disease, and subsequently 25% will die horrible deaths in liver failure (not that you would care).
            Although alcohol can worsen liver failure, these consequences occur regardless of the lifestyle of the person with Hep B.

            Your pathetic attmpts to imply that people infected with Hep B, through no fault of their own, are somehow responsible for getting the infection and suffering the consequences are absolutely shameful, Cia.
            What a callous, heartless b you are.

          • ciaparker2

            BUT since those children you think become carriers of hep-B never have any symptoms, it’s just a mater of he said, she said. You say no, they never show symptoms in childhood, but only when they become adults, but CLEARLY they had the infection as children. I say that they didn’t get it as children, but only as adults. Again, no symptoms until adulthood and very rarely was the person tested for hep-B before showing symptoms (as an adult).

            Through no fault of their own? I’d say becoming an alcoholic or a drug addict is through their fault. And I’d say that failing to get the hep-B vaccine to try to protect themselves from getting this lifestyle disease is also through their fault. And little babies should not pay the price for their irresponsibility.

            My pathetic attempts? Projecting much?

          • ciaparker2

            I just tried to see if I could find the page number in Harrison’s, but Google is no longer our friend. I did, however, find this:

            “According to Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine (1994): in cases of acute hepatitis B most patients do not require hospital care; 95 percent of patients have a favorable course and recover completely; case-fatality ratio is “very low (approximately 0.1 percent).” (1/10th of 1% or 1 out of 1,000); and Those (95%) who recover completely from hepatitis B infection acquire life-long immunity (this is a good thing).

            According to Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease (a medical textbook published in 1994), of those who do not recover completely, fewer than 5 percent become chronic carriers of the virus with just one quarter of these in danger of developing life threatening liver disease later in life.

            Translation: Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            What does this mean? It depends on which statistics you look at. Let’s take the worst-case scenario and go with the “200,000 new cases yearly” cited in the 1999 video from ABC’s 20/20 show.

            200,000 x .95 = 190,000 will recover completely (95% will recover completely)

            Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            10,000 will not recover completely

            10,000 x .05 = 500 will become chronic carriers

            500 x .25 = 125 will die in later life due to liver disease”

          • Proponent

            Re: Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine (1994)

            This is interesting, and also from “Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine 19/E”..

            “VACCINES AND CANCER PREVENTION

            A number of infectious agents cause cancer. Hepatitis B and C are linked to liver cancer; some HPV strains are linked to cervical, anal, and head and neck cancer; and Helicobacter pylori is associated with gastric adenocarcinoma and gastric lymphoma. Vaccines to protect against these agents may reduce the risk of their associated cancers.

            The hepatitis B vaccine is effective in preventing hepatitis and hepatomas due to chronic hepatitis B infection.

            A quadrivalent HPV vaccine (covering HPV strains 6, 11, 16, and 18) and a bivalent vaccine (covering HPV strains 16 and 18) are available for use in the United States. HPV types 16 and 18 cause cervical and anal cancer; reduction in these HPV types could prevent >70% of cervical cancers worldwide.

            The vaccine is recommended in the United States for females and males age 9-26 years.”

            I found this within seconds. Would you like me to tutor you in basic information retrieval skills?

          • ciaparker2

            So we have a very small number of alcoholics or drug addicts who will eventually die of hep-B. And a very large number who have severe adverse reactions, including death, if they get the vaccine. Every parent must consider this vaccine very carefully before permitting it to be given, and be aware of how often it has been given with no permission. Those babies born to healthy mothers are much more likely to have a disabling or fatal reaction to the vaccine than to get hep-B. From the Recombivax package insert:

            “Incidence Equal To or Greater Than 1% of Injections

            GENERAL DISORDERS AND ADMINISTRATION SITE CONDITIONS

            Injection site reactions consisting principally of soreness, and including pain, tenderness, pruritus,

            erythema, ecchymosis, swelling, warmth, nodule formation.

            The most frequent systemic complaints include fatigue/weakness; headache; fever (≥100°F); malaise.

            GASTROINTESTINAL DISORDERS

            Nausea; diarrhea

            RESPIRATORY, THORACIC AND MEDIASTINAL DISORDERS

            Pharyngitis; upper respiratory infection

            Incidence Less Than 1% of Injections

            GENERAL DISORDERS AND ADMINISTRATION SITE CONDITIONS

            Sweating; achiness; sensation of warmth; lightheadedness; chills; flushing

            5

            GASTROINTESTINAL DISORDERS

            Vomiting; abdominal pains/cramps; dyspepsia; diminished appetite

            RESPIRATORY, THORACIC AND MEDIASTINAL DISORDERS

            Rhinitis; influenza; cough

            NERVOUS SYSTEM DISORDERS

            Vertigo/dizziness; paresthesia

            SKIN AND SUBCUTANEOUS TISSUE DISORDERS

            Pruritus; rash (non-specified); angioedema; urticaria

            MUSCULOSKELETAL AND CONNECTIVE TISSUE DISORDERS

            Arthralgia including monoarticular; myalgia; back pain; neck pain; shoulder pain; neck stiffness

            BLOOD AND LYMPHATIC DISORDERS

            Lymphadenopathy

            PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS

            Insomnia/disturbed sleep

            EAR AND LABYRINTH DISORDERS

            Earache

            RENAL AND URINARY DISORDERS

            Dysuria

            CARDIAC DISORDERS

            Hypotension

            6.2 Post-Marketing Experience

            The following additional adverse reactions have been reported with use of the marketed vaccine.

            Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not possible to

            reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to a vaccine exposure.

            Immune System Disorders

            Hypersensitivity reactions including anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions, bronchospasm, and urticaria

            have been reported within the first few hours after vaccination. An apparent hypersensitivity syndrome

            (serum-sickness-like) of delayed onset has been reported days to weeks after vaccination, including:

            arthralgia/arthritis (usually transient), fever, and dermatologic reactions such as urticaria, erythema

            multiforme, ecchymoses and erythema nodosum [see Warnings and Precautions (5.1)]. Autoimmune

            diseases including systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), lupus-like syndrome, vasculitis, and polyarteritis

            nodosa have also been reported.

            Gastrointestinal Disorders

            Elevation of liver enzymes; constipation

            Nervous System Disorders

            Guillain-Barré syndrome; multiple sclerosis; exacerbation of multiple sclerosis; myelitis including

            transverse myelitis; seizure; febrile seizure; peripheral neuropathy including Bell’s Palsy; radiculopathy;

            herpes zoster; migraine; muscle weakness; hypesthesia; encephalitis

            Skin and Subcutaneous Disorders

            Stevens-Johnson syndrome; alopecia; petechiae; eczema

            Musculoskeletal and Connective Tissue Disorders

            Arthritis

            Pain in extremity

            Blood and Lymphatic System Disorders

            Increased erythrocyte sedimentation rate; thrombocytopenia

            Psychiatric Disorders

            Irritability; agitation; somnolence

            Eye Disorders

            Optic neuritis; tinnitus; conjunctivitis; visual disturbances; uveitis

            Cardiac Disorders

            Syncope; tachycardia

            The following adverse reaction has been reported with another Hepatitis B Vaccine (Recombinant) but

            not with RECOMBIVAX HB: keratitis.”

            https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/r/recombivax_hb/recombivax_pi.pdf

          • Proponent

            Let’s see.. bare assertions followed by some text quoted from a vaccine package insert that amounts to.. sore arms and discomfort (adverse reactions).

            But, then we have..

            “The following additional adverse reactions have been reported with use of the marketed vaccine. Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to a vaccine exposure.”

            (See also: Skeptical Raptor | “Argument by Vaccine Package Inserts – they’re not infallible” )

            … …

            Which begs these questions that have been posed numerous times any time someone (read; “anti-vaxxer”) trots this stuff out..

            Why are you citing a document written by a pharmaceutical company? Are they.. now.. a trustworthy source of information?

            Inquiring minds want to know..

            … …

            Next?

          • shay simmons
          • Ron Roy

            ” Except when listing side effects on vaccine inserts” You mean the inserts they don’t show to parents whose babies are about to be sacrificed to the pharmaceutical industry for a few dollars? And when those side effects do occur they deny it had anything to do with the vaccine. FTFY

          • AutismDadd

            And for .75 cents the harm caused is insured against. How lovely government would sell its own citizen’s life for a mere .75 cents.

          • shay simmons

            Odd, isn’t it, that everyone seems to know about something that you claim is hidden from parents.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Odd, isn’t it, that everyone seems to know about something that you claim is hidden from parents.” Only a few know but the word is spreading fast. That’s why the drug industry has hired more people, like you, to try and stem the tide.

          • shay simmons

            Nice try, Ron. Shame that you have — still — no evidence to back up your claims.

          • shay simmons

            Because these reactions are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to a vaccine exposure.

            Your cite, parker.

          • Jonathan Graham

            and a very large number who have severe adverse reactions

            Oh? Your cite doesn’t say that. Interesting.

          • shay simmons

            It never ceases to amaze me that parker tosses numbers like ten thousand around as though they are nothing.

            And that’s in adults, parker. Why don’t you tell us what the % are in infants who contract Hep B?

          • FallsAngel

            She could care! If it saves one child from having a sore arm from the vaccine, it’s worth it! /s

          • Proponent

            An aside:

            Proceed with caution..

            CBS News | “Measles kills 35 children in Europe in “unacceptable tragedy”

            … the rampant racism and sheer crazy is amped up in the Disqus comment/discussion section.

          • ciaparker2

            Infants born to infected mothers, who are routinely tested for hep-B in pregnancy, should probably get the vaccine, which may or may not work to prevent the infection in them. It is a very serious infection in these infants. In infants born to healthy mothers, there is no chance that the infant will get hep-B, which is a blood-borne disease in those not having sex with each other. These infants will not have the infected blood of a hep-B carrier rubbed on an open wound of their own. The vaccine is vastly more dangerous to them than the disease.

          • shay simmons

            In infants born to healthy mothers, there is no chance that the infant will get hep-B,

            Citation needed.

            “It’s estimated that 33,000 kids (10 years of age and younger) born to moms who are not infected with HBV were infected each year prior to implementation of routine childhood hepatitis B vaccination”

            Edited to add the op cit.

          • ciaparker2

            Time waster.

          • shay simmons

            Why is it a waste of your time to provide evidence to back up your opinions?

          • JGC

            She finds it more productive to spend the time posting additional false and unfounded claims.

          • ciaparker2

            Again, “estimated” means that they’re selling a bill of goods. There is NO proof that more than a small number of children was ever infected in the US with hep-B. Again, those who “estimate” this large number freely admit that there was no proof, because they never had any symptoms of hep-B, but grew up as healthy children. When they were trying to make the vaccine recommended for every newborn in the US, regardless of whether or not his mother had hep-B, they thought they’d have more luck if they scared people like this. This is based on the fact that decades later, when the people were adults, some got hep-B (by the usual vectors: drug needles and sex), many of them said they had no idea how they had gotten it. And the vaccine pushers said Eureka! That means you must have gotten it as a child and NO ONE knew! Ergo, we shall now vaccinate every infant in America, and kick off our new Age of Autism with the hundreds of thousands of babies who have reacted to the vaccine with vaccine encephalitis. LIke mine.

            The sensible thing to do would be to test women during pregnancy and then before even thinking about giving the vaccine to her baby. If she’s negative for hep-B, the vaccine may disable or kill her baby, but will not help him.

          • shay simmons

            Trot out your proof that no child of a healthy mother has ever come down with hep B. It’s right up there with your proof that your baby had encephalitis, and all the other statements you make.

            Not Found.

          • shay simmons

            No, “estimated” means they are basing their numbers on reports submitted by local public health agencies – approximately 2,800 of them. Google MMWR — and then try and find a weekly report submitted from all over the United States and territories that supports the numbers you claim.

            For someone who claims to know more than 99.999999% of doctors and researchers, you certainly don’t know much about the process of surveillance and reporting.

          • ciaparker2

            What a liar you are. To be diagnosed with hep-B means they had to test their blood to make the diagnosis. The CDC reported here in the chart at the bottom that less than one child between one and ten years old out of every 100,000 was diagnosed with hep-B BEFORE the vaccine was recommended for every child in 1991. And hep-B becomes less dangerous the older you are when you get it. Most of these children recovered from it within weeks or months. It was a total of around 360 children A YEAR, not 2,800.

            http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5125a3.htm

          • shay simmons

            What an illiterate fool you are.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694691

            BTW, you might try reading the rest of that report — particularly the part about how safe the vaccine is.

          • ciaparker2

            From your study: “Estimated annual rates of infection”
            Again, it’s nothing but estimates by pharma pushers who were fervently hoping there really were that many infections so they could pretend the vaccine was needed for healthy children. The only numbers based on real diagnoses based on blood sampling to see how many children under ten had hep-B showed that only one in 100,000, or 360 a year, were diagnosed with it. There’s no doubt that medical authorities did a lot of lying to get the vaccine recommended. How safe it is? What do you think dishonest pharma lackeys are going to say about the vaccine they’re pushing? The congressional safety hearing on it in May 1999 found that it was dangerous. Numerous studies which are in the links I have posted show how dangerous it is. Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism is replete with studies, figures, statements from doctors, and from parents of the thousands of babies and children disabled or killed by the vaccine. Did you read the article I linked yesterday calling it an unmitigated disaster?

          • Mike Stevens

            An epidemiological estimate is made using strict methodology Cia.
            For Hep B prevalence they sample representative sections of the population and perform an extrapolation, factoring in confidence limits so people can apply a range on how accurate the estimate is.
            It is not a “guess”, but a well defined and exact science.

            If you refuse to regard Hep B data as anything but a “wild guess”, then I am afraid you will have to similarly regard all autism prevalence estimates as “a wild guess” as well, and disregard them entirely.

            So please don’t cite autism rates ever again.
            …Deal?

          • ciaparker2

            But, again, the ONLY studies based on hard figures of how many children had actually been diagnosed with hep-B showed that only 360 a year were. It is dishonest to put up dozens of studies which cannot do more than “estimate” that the “real” figure is 33,000 a year. And hep-B, again, has never been a big problem in the US, very few get it, and about 95% of them completely recover from it in weeks or months. BUT if you really want to scare people and make everyone take the vaccine, then you have to manufacture statistics which have no base in reality. Again, you agree that very few children have ever developed clinical signs of hep-B. How dishonest is it to say that adults who get it at thirty years old, after they have become alcoholics or drug addicts, MUST have gotten it as children? THAT is what these crazy estimates are based on.

            It is obvious to anyone with a mind that if you have 360 children a year diagnosed with hep-B based on actual physical testing, but no more than that, to say that 33,000 is the “real” figure shows you the lengths to which Big Pharma will go to force their vaccine(s) down everyone’s throat. I just read about an article about one to come out in Teen Vogue about how delightful anal sex is for girls, with a how-to guide in their next issue. Does anyone really not see Merck’s hand in this (Levi Quackenboss did, but I would have arrived at the same conclusion independently). Sales of Gardasil are way down, what can we do to perk up sales?

          • Mike Stevens

            No, you plonker… those are studies based on clinical cases which are then subsequently tested.
            Seroprevalence studies are based on testing too, and provide equally “hard” figures.
            How can you be so dense as to not appreciate this?

            Of course, autism rates are based on what…?
            ….Pray tell.
            According to your ideal, you’d have to get every single child in the country tested by a paediatric neurologist to arrive at an accurate autism rate. Do they do that?
            Of course not.

          • ciaparker2

            No. 90% of young babies become chronic carriers, and that’s why I think giving the infants of infected mothers the vaccine is usually a good idea. The older the person, the less likely that he’ll become a chronic carrier. Very few children get it, as they neither share drug needles with infected people nor have unprotected sex. And no matter how much you want to play it, it’s unlikely a child is going to get it. Remember the Australian study of schoolchildren to see if it were transmitted among them which found that no, it was not? You simply can’t just explode 360 children shown to have hep-B into 330,000 just because you’d like to.

            “The proportion of patients with acute HBV Infection who progress
            to chronic infection varies with age and immune status. As many as 90% of
            infants who acquire HBV infection from their mothers at birth or in infancy
            become chronically infected. Of children who become infected with HBV between 1
            year and 5 years of age, 30% to 50% become chronically infected. By adulthood,
            the risk of acquiring chronic HBV infection is approximately 5%. Acute HBV
            progresses to chronic HBV in approximately 40% of hemodialysis patients and up
            to 20% of patients with immune deficiencies.”

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hepb.html

            Did you not see this the other day, or you just prefer not to take notice of it because you really want to shoot up every infant in the world, devil take the consequences?

            According to Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease (a medical textbook published in 1994), of those who do not recover completely, fewer than 5 percent become chronic carriers of the virus with just one quarter of these in danger of developing life threatening liver disease later in life.

            Translation: Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            What does this mean? It depends on which statistics you look at. Let’s take the worst-case scenario and go with the “200,000 new cases yearly” cited in the 1999 video from ABC’s 20/20 show.

            200,000 x .95 = 190,000 will recover completely (95% will recover completely)

            Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            10,000 will not recover completely

            10,000 x .05 = 500 will become chronic carriers

            500 x .25 = 125 will die in later life due to liver disease”

            http://vaxtruth.org/tag/gre

          • ciaparker2

            Already disappeared on my end. I’ll try nailing it down. Well, you recall that scientists in North Dakota in 1987 examined the records of every single child in North Dakota several times, years apart, to determine how many had autism. It was three in 10,000. It can and should be done on a national basis now. (“Autism not really on the rise? by J.B. Handley) Two years ago, in attempted negotiations with school staff about C, I told the autism resource specialist that they should test her to find out how many grammatical structures and how much vocabulary she could use independently. He said there was no such test to his knowledge. What? I showed him a Linda Mood Bell catalogue with such a test being sold, and also Cambridge catalogues with tests to assess the level of language proficiency of English language learners. I said I’d buy a copy of the test if they liked that they could use. (They took that as a joke.) So why is it again that they can’t assess the level of English proficiency of autistic students in the public schools? Oh, yeah, because pharma totalitarianism doesn’t WANT anyone to look at the problem and look for ways to remediate the damage.
            And you’ll also recall your NHANES study which concluded that a lot of kids up through 21 had hep-B. Why did they muddy the waters with so many teens, many of whom take up sex, drugs, and alcohol? I’m sure the records of the children still exist, why don’t they publish another study, or even just a short release, with the number of children under ten with diagnosed hep-B? Because they know it’s an insignificant number of children? And if this is such a big problem, then they need to do concrete studies on tens of thousands of children. Maybe give parents financial incentive to let doctors in routine visits of unvaccinated children take a blood sample to test for HBV. Then you could find out how many apparently healthy children have HBV with no one knowing. You can’t say that because most are vaxxed, that protects the unvaxxed, since, as the Australia study showed, it isn’t transmitted among schoolchildren. These unvaxxed children (like C, she only got the first disastrous one given without permission, no more. The snarky nurse said when I exclaimed in shock when they said they’d given it to her that if I didn’t want her protected from a dangerous disease, she wouldn’t be unless she got the other shots in the series. Which only gives protection for a few years.) So if unvaxxed kids are so likely to get hep-B from unknown, invisible ways, please come and with my permission do a blood test on her to see if she has hep-B. Or on me. I never got the vaccine, and yet, when I was pregnant, they tested me and found me negative for hep-B. No adult I know but my brother has gotten the vaccine, yet so far none of us has gotten any symptom of hep-B or any kind of liver disease.

          • ciaparker2

            nail it down

          • Mike Stevens

            “”The proportion of patients with acute HBV Infection who progress to chronic infection varies with age and immune status. As many as 90% of infants who acquire HBV infection from their mothers at birth or in infancy become chronically infected. Of children who become infected with HBV between 1 year and 5 years of age, 30% to 50% become chronically infected. By adulthood, the risk of acquiring chronic HBV infection is approximately 5%. Acute HBV progresses to chronic HBV in approximately 40% of hemodialysis patients and up
            to 20% of patients with immune deficiencies.”

            That’s pretty accurate, and pretty much matches what I said in my previous posts, Cia (except I see I used the phrase “infants and children” at one point when I should have just said “infants”).

            Now, ….note that in adults, 5% develop chronic Hepatitis B infection/chronic hepatitis. They are Hep B carriers, being unable to adequately clear virus, which causes liver damage and results, as I previously stated, in around 25% dying later in life from decompensated cirrhosis and liver failure.

            If there were 200,000 cases of acute Hep B in adults each year, that would mean 10,000 with chronic Hep B (5%), and 25% of them would die (2,500 deaths a year).

            You state that “Robbins Pathological Basis of Disease (a medical textbook published in 1994), of those who do not recover completely, fewer than 5 percent become chronic carriers of the virus with just one quarter of these in danger of developing life threatening liver disease later in life.
            Translation:Of the 5% of people who do not recover completely from hepatitis B infection, 5% will become chronic carriers and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.”

            But that is WRONG. You have added an extra 5% step in there, quite incorrectly.

            What you should say is that “of the 5% who do not recover completely, all become chronic carriers (not 5%), and ¼ of them will eventually die from Hep B related liver disease.

            So, let’s look exactly at what Robbins says shall we, in its latest 9th edition, p831, shall we?
            Please look at the algorithm at the lower half. Note that 5-10% develop chronic hepatitis, of whom 22-33% get cirrhosis or HCC which would result in death without a liver transplant.
            That would be around 25% of the 5-10%, or between 1.25 and 2,5% of the adults getting acute hepatitis. For 200,000 cases, that would be between 2,500 and 5,000 deaths (or transplants).

            This is entirely consistent with the CDC estimate of 2,500 deaths a year (for 200,000 cases).
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c6646c9f88d83b59212c379aa4f87978af8b52a7f072015eb78bb9804835c413.jpg

          • Mike Stevens

            Now, Cia, let’s look at how many deaths Hep B did actually cause in the US. We move away from the epidemiological predictions which state up to 2,500 would die, and look at actual numbers of patients who died.

            Now you have stated that as few as “125” would have died every year from Hep B.

            Now look at this chart, which is taken from this article on Hep B epidemiology:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3290915/
            Do you see how many died, Cia?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cb099f1726ec6c72a6adbcea0359cc76de186588740d7b189a9f53a312be0aca.jpg

          • ciaparker2

            “About 90% of babies who catch hep-B during birth become chronically infected. They might not show symptoms for a while (many years or decades), but about 25% of them will develop liver cancer or liver failure eventually.
            Kids who catch hep-b during the toddler or preschool years have about a 35% chance of getting a chronic infection, and older kids and adults have only a 6-10% chance of developing a chronic disease.” The Vaccine Book, first edition, Bob Sears, 52).
            Hey, Mike, were you genuinely unaware that it is NOT 90% of all children who get a chronic infection, but only 35% of children past infancy? Why would you double the figure unless you were uninformed as to the reality? And why should we believe anything a man says prone to doubling figures to support his claims if this were deliberate?

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, it would do you well to read my words carefully.
            I stated that “the kids who have Hep B subclinically are the ones you need to worry about, because 90% of them become chronic carriers, and 50 % get chronic liver disease, with 25% dying a horrible, protracted death later from liver failure.”

            Note I did not say that “90% of all kids become chronic carriers”.

            There is a difference.
            If there is an inadequate immune response (as there is in 90% of infants, and up to 50% of older kids), the Hep B will be subclinical, and of those kids with that subclinical presentation, 90% will become chronic carriers.
            Please PAY ATTENTION!

          • ciaparker2

            Another good passage from Dr. Sears’ Vaccine Book, 50-1:
            “They did several studies to try to estimate how common hep-B was in children. First they started with the total number of suspected carriers of hep-B in the US. It was thought that there were about 1.25 million chronic carriers nationwide at any given time. Statistical analysis showed that in order to have that many chronic carriers, there must be about 200,000 new cases every year. Research indicated that many adult cases couldn’t be traced back to a known source (such as a sexual partner, an infected mother at the time of birth, or high-risk behaviors). It was hypothesized that many of the adults might have contracted the disease as children, and experts feared that hep-B might not be only a sexually-transmitted disease. They worried that it was being passed easily to children through casual day-to-day contact (since then, this has been documented only a handful of times). They concluded that as many as 30,000 infants and children must be contracting hep-B each year in order to add up to the estimated 200,000 new cases each year and 1.25 million chronic cases living in the US. It was then decided in 1991 that all babies should be vaccinated in order to decrease hep-B in our population. These researchers were part of a very well-respected group – the leaders in their field. Very few doctors questioned their data (see ‘Resources,’ page 264, for an article by one who did).
            What was the actual number of diagnoses and reported cases of hep-B back then, before vaccination began? In adults there were only about 20,000 new cases each year (about one-tenth of the estimates). And, as I mentioned, only about 360 infants and children nine years and younger were being diagnosed each year. So how did researchers make the jump in their estimates and come up with 30,000 kids? One assumption they made was that since only about 10% of kids who catch hep-B show symptoms right away, and some suffer only minor flu symptoms that never get diagnosed as hepatitis and pass with very little trouble, these cases might be rarely found and reported until the child becomes very ill, which might not occur until they are young adults. If this is true, it could account for about 3,600 infections each year in kids. But that is still far short of the estimated 30,000.
            The fact that there were only 360 reported cases each year in kids before vaccination started probably comes as a surprise to most doctors. That’s because we are trained to believe that there were about 30,000 cases each year. How do I know there were so few reported cases? (In this CDC report, it states very clearly in a graph at the end of the paper that in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was about 1 case for every 100,000 kids each year in our population of kids from birth through nine years. This was the only paper I could find that detailed this number in the kids’ population only. According to the US Census Bureau, there were about 36 million kids in that age group in 1990. This comes out to about 360 cases reported in kids from birth through nine each year. In the preceding paragraph, I conceded that you could multiply this number by ten (since only about 10% of childhood cases show symptoms) and come up with an approximate 3600 cases each year of kids who are hep-B positive. But I still can’t find a logical way to increase this number to 30,000.”
            No one can find a logical way to explain the wildly inflated figures used to justify universal use of this extremely dangerous vaccine, which has caused hundreds of thousands of cases of autism when given to babies, and many cases of MS and arthritis (etc.), when given to older people. Parents are the only ones able to stop the carnage, by refusing the vaccine for infants born to healthy mothers, and warning adolescents that if they insist on doing drugs, sex, and alcohol, they should consider the risk of contracting hep-B and maybe get the (still dangerous) vaccine. In those past young childhood who get hep-B who are not alcoholics, prostitutes, or drug addicts, the vast majority are sick for a few weeks or months and then completely recover from hep-B. .

          • Mike Stevens

            Sears doubles down on the same misinterpretation you do Cia (in fact it is clear you got yours from him in the first place, I’d say).
            The supposed 360 cases of acute hepatitis did represent clinically diagnosed, symptomatic cases only, and only in those aged from 12 months to 9 years.

            These are likley to be a significant underestimate because of under-reporting, and not all cases of illness would necessarily be serologically tested, particularly in young kids, since Hep B is not a usually suspected diagnosis, and a presumption could easily be made it is Hep A (I’ve seen that happen several times in my career). So I’d say that the true number of acute symptomatic cases could easily be 2 or 3 times that, call it 1,000 per year.
            Then you need to add in the cases of Hep B infection that affect those under the age of one year, which comprises a large proportion of childhood Hep B cases, because of neonatal infections. Seeing as how there were over 10,000 Hep B positive women giving birth each year, the number of infections of neonates would be considerable (without interventions like vaccination). So lets add in another few hundred, say 500 or so (estimate only, it could be less, could be more – I’ll have to cross check). Now we are up to 1,500 reported cases per year…

            Then factor in the fact that could these represent only 10% of the overall total (the other 90% being totally asymptomatic) and you have a possible total of 15,000 cases in every year.

            Not as few as you’d have us believe, is it Cia, and it corresponds quite well with what the serological prevalence studies in children says.

            Now I am not happy with even 360 kids getting a preventable infection each year that will kill a significant proportion of them, let alone 15,000. Thank heavens Hep B vaccination seems to have largely eliminated this scourge of disease blighting children’s futures.

          • shay simmons

            No, estimated means they used accepted analytical tools and applied them to infection rates and population data.

            What methodology do you use to estimate “vaccine damage” and what is your data source?

          • ciaparker2

            “The CDC claims that up to a million US adults may carry the hepatitis-B virus asymptomatically. This unverifiable figure is a 150-fold inflation over current reported incidence of some 6,400 cases, which in turn is a figure that the CDC admits to inflating.” (163)

            “(There have been) thousands of FDA-documented adverse reactions to the shot. In fact, there are more adverse reactions to it than to all other vaccines combined. These are particularly devastating for babies, who wind up with life-shattering, permanent impairments or even death when they react. Though independent researchers have begun to document and describe these events, health officials deny the reactions, and will not speculate on who is susceptible. Adults and older children who react experience permanent disability as they mysteriously lose functioning in their limbs, acquire chronic fatigue syndrome, and watch their immunity to just about everything lapse. Still want the shot for your new baby?” (149)

            From When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism, Judy Converse.

          • shay simmons

            She explains neither her methodology nor identifies her data set (except in the vaguest terms). Where is the documentation for her claims?

          • ciaparker2
          • Proponent

            Yes, you referencing that article from your e-home, ciaparker2, is an unmitigated disaster indeed..

            WITHDRAWN: Delayed acquisition of neonatal reflexes in newborn primates receiving a thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B vaccine: Influence of gestational age and birth weight.

            “This article has been withdrawn at the request of the editor. The
            Publisher apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause. The full
            Elsevier Policy on Article Withdrawal can be found at
            http://www.elsevier.com/locate/withdrawalpolicy.”

            … …

            Next?

          • Ron Roy

            That’s because those numbers are taken out of thin air and have no substance to them.

          • Jonathan Graham

            ciaparker’s numbers are out of thin air?

          • shay simmons

            I think the source is a bit lower down.

          • Ron Roy

            The ONLY thin air here is in your head.

          • shay simmons

            Ron’s fantasy requires hundreds of thousands of US public health and private healthcare workers to willingly falsify epidemiological data, not just for years but for decades. Data about a disease that can affect their friends, their families, and their children.

            That he is convinced people are so easily bought says more about his ethics than it does theirs.

          • Ron Roy
          • shay simmons

            Do you ever read the articles you cite? “Both the drug companies and academia tightened their policies. Only a handful of doctors who were among the 20 highest-paid in 2010 have maintained their level of income from speaking, the new data show.”

            So…where’s the audit trail to the hundreds of thousands of RNs, epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, health department officials, etc?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Or if it’s all done under the table, perhaps Ron can cite some idiot who drives a Ferrari/BMW/etc despite the fact that on paper, they can’t afford it.

          • Ron Roy

            Just one case out of how many?:”On June 9, FBI agents arrested two former drug company employees for
            allegedly running a brazen scheme to bribe doctors to prescribe millions
            of dollars’ worth of a powerful synthetic opioid. Complaints
            filed in federal court by the FBI paint a disturbing picture of doctors
            succumbing to greed and violating their duty to act only in the best
            interests of their patients”.https://www.citizen.org/our-work/health-and-safety/outrage-month-doctors-accepting-bribes-betraying-patients

          • shay simmons

            Still waiting for the audit trail leading back to RNs, epidemiologists, public health workers….

          • Ron Roy
          • shay simmons

            Still waiting for the audit trail leading back to RNs, epidemiologists, public health workers…you’re really bad at this “evidence” thing.

          • Ron Roy

            RNs,and public health workers follow doctors’ orders.Speaking of bribes:The average American pediatrician has 1546 patients, though some pediatricians see many more.
            The vast majority of those patients are very young, perhaps because
            children transition to a family physician or stop visiting the doctor at
            all as they grow up. As they table above explains, Blue Cross Blue
            Shield pays pediatricians $400 per fully vaccinated child. If your
            pediatrician has just 100 fully-vaccinated patients turning 2 this year,
            that’s $40,000. Yes, Blue Cross Blue Shield pays your doctor a
            $40,000 bonus for fully vaccinating 100 patients under the age of 2. If
            your doctor manages to fully vaccinate 200 patients, that bonus jumps to $80,000. 6/06/20/how-much-money-do-pediatricians-really-make-from-vaccines/

          • shay simmons

            Blue Cross is an insurance company. Insurance companies LOSE money if patients get sick. Not a bribe — perfectly legal (also, county health departments that operate immunization clinics for low-cost patients get no such incentives).

            Logic fail.

            EDITED TO ADD: our county HD is run by RNs, btw…even the director is an RN. The county health officer (MD) is a contractor and drops in weekly.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and if vaccination creates more medical costs than it avoids. Blue Cross paying for that puts them at a disadvantage to every other insurer who doesn’t. Thanks for refuting your own argument. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            Nope not refuting my argument .As I said any weather insurance companies encourage vaccinations the added costs are merely passed on to the consumer. They probably encourage vaccinations in order to tow the medical line. They also pay exorbitant sums for cancer treatment, which inmost cases doesn’t work. A small example of insurance companies idiocy:”If you get cancer, your medical insurance or Medicare will pay for tens
            and hundreds of thousands of dollars of surgery, radiation and/or
            chemotherapy – whatever is the standard of practice for your particular
            kind of cancer. This in spite of the fact that after spending more than
            $2 billion annually for research over the last quarter century, the
            medical literature reveals that the incidence and mortality for most
            kinds of cancer remains unchanged – or continues to rise.

            However,
            if you want to get treated at an alternative clinic where the success
            rate is upwards of ten times higher than conventional treatments – with
            the subsequent quality of life also immeasurably better – the cost could
            run $5,000 per week for a one or two-month in-patient program. This is
            still less than the cost of conventional treatment – for which
            hospitalization can cost upwards of $5,000 per day – but again, this
            would all have to come out of your pocket. And presently, it might have
            to occur out of the U.S., because many therapies that have proven
            effective abroad are not allowed to be practiced within our borders.

            With
            heart disease, if you have a blocked artery, you can be one of the
            half-million or so people in this country every year who have a bypass
            operation that costs between $50,000 and $100,000 – and it will cost you
            little, if anything, because it is probably covered by your HMO, PPO or
            Medicare.

            However, it is an entirely different story if you want
            to prevent or reverse coronary heart disease by going to an alternative
            physician. He or she would likely prescribe lifestyle changes,
            supplements and chelation therapy. A full examination, follow-ups, all
            lab work and a year’s complete treatment could cost between $5,000 and
            $7,500. This is a fraction of what conventional treatment costs, but
            again, the chances are that you would be responsible for paying for all
            of it. That is, if you are lucky enough to live in one of 11 states in
            which a doctor can perform chelation therapy without risk of losing his
            or her medical license”.http://www.burtongoldberg.com/alternative-medicine-coverage.html

          • Jonathan Graham

            Nope not refuting my argument.

            I have a hard time believing you really have so little understanding about running a business.

            As I said any weather insurance companies encourage vaccinations the added costs are merely passed on to the consumer

            …and if a single company decides not to do so they gain all that money. So at that very second they are making MORE money than ALL of their competitors who are passing on this made-up extra cost.

            On top of that they no longer have to maintain the infrastructure to track and pay doctors. That’s making them even more money and on top of that remember you claim that people who are vaccinated have an enormously elevated cost on the medical system. Since giving financial encouragement to doctors to see their patients fully vaccinated probably results in a higher number of vaccinated patients. The company which stops would therefore gain all the secondary effects of having fewer vaccinated patients.

            These companies would be making this money simply by dismantling a boondoggle system and have a distinct advantage over those who you imagine are passing on the elevated costs to their customers. It is entirely irrational for insurance companies, who routinely quibble over a few dollars to not jump at this. Yet not one does.

            They could even use those cost reductions to lower rates and steal customers from other companies.

            So yes, your argument has been refuted.

          • Ron Roy

            Insurance companies are in dire financial straights because they cover expensive cancer treatments ( that don’t work anyway) and and all the side effects from drugs and vaccines. So much so that they attempted to have a bill passed that would have essentially have been a government bailout using taxpayer money of course. From Chuck Baldwins column:

            The Senate Obamacare
            bill does not repeal Obamacare. Not even close.

            In fact, the Senate
            GOP bill codifies and likely expands many aspects of Obamacare.

            The Senate
            Obamacare-lite bill codifies a federal entitlement to insurance. With the Senate
            GOP bill, Republicans, for the first time, will signal that they favor a key
            aspect of Obamacare–federal taxpayer funding of private insurance
            purchases.

            The bill will
            transfer billions of dollars to people who will then transfer billions of
            dollars to insurance companies. What a great business model–encourage the
            federal government to use taxpayer money to buy a private company’s product.
            Great business model, that is, if you are Big Insurance. Remarkable.

            The Senate
            Obamacare-lite bill does what the Democrats forgot to do–appropriate billions
            for Obamacare’s cost-sharing reductions, aka subsidies. Really? Republicans are
            going to fund Obamacare subsidies that the Democrats forgot to fund?

            Rand
            went on to say:

            I miss the old days,
            when Republicans stood for repealing Obamacare. Republicans across the country
            and every member of my caucus campaigned on repeal–often declaring they would
            tear out Obamacare “root and branch!”

            What
            happened?

            Now too many
            Republicans are falling all over themselves to stuff hundreds of billions of
            taxpayers’ dollars into a bill that doesn’t repeal Obamacare and feeds Big
            Insurance a huge bailout.

            Obamacare
            regulations? Still here. Taxes? Many still in place, totaling hundreds of
            billions of dollars.

            Insurance company
            bailouts? Those, too. Remember when Republicans complained about Obamacare’s
            risk corridors? Remember when we called the corridors nothing more than
            insurance company bailouts? I remember when one prominent GOP candidate during a
            presidential debate explicitly called out the Obamacare risk corridors as a
            bailout to insurance companies. Does anyone else?

            The
            Republican congressional leadership was willing to spend up to $200 billion to
            bribe members of the Republican caucus into supporting this monstrosity. And
            while conservative pundits and talk show hosts are excoriating McConnell and
            Ryan as “traitors” to conservatism, they conveniently overlook the fact that
            President Trump did everything he could do to browbeat and bully recalcitrant
            members of Congress into supporting the bill. Trump said he would be “very
            angry” if Congress didn’t pass Obamacare 2.0. “I am sitting in the Oval Office
            with a pen in hand, waiting for our senators to give it to me,” Trump said. “It
            has to get passed. They have to do it. They have to get together and get it
            done.” But Trump was not elected to replace Obamacare with a Republican version
            that was even WORSE. He was elected on the promise of completely repealing
            Obamacare.

            But
            McConnell, Ryan, and Trump’s bullying and briberies almost worked.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Insurance companies are in dire financial straights because they cover expensive cancer treatments ( that don’t work anyway) and and all the side effects from drugs and vaccines.

            Ron, only a day or so ago you claimed that these expenses don’t hurt insurance companies since they pass them off to their customers by increasing premiums.

            Also insurance companies seem to be doing fine (The main exception being Co-ops which a) aren’t going to be saved (since most of them are gone) b) were a shaky proposition to begin with.)

            While Americans continue to fork out more money, insurers are doing great.

            On Thursday, Aetna reported $734 million in profit on $15.8 billion in revenue for the three months that ended Sept. 30. The nation’s third-largest health insurer by revenue handily beat Wall Street estimates for the quarter. Chief Financial Officer Shawn M. Guertin cited “solid performance” in the company’s core health insurance business that offset “pressure” from its business under the Affordable Care Act

            http://www.salon.com/2016/10/28/making-a-killing-under-obamacare-the-aca-gets-the-blame-for-rising-premiums-while-insurance-companies-are-reaping-massive-profits/

            So yeah, this is just you attempting to distract from the fact that you lost this argument. There is every reason – if vaccines cause far more problems than they avoid – for health insurance companies to stop compensating doctors. However they don’t which makes either the insurance companies with millions s of patient records to examine irrational or YOU.The smart money is on you being irrational Ron. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            ”Average Individual Health Insurance Premiums Increased
            99% Since 2013, the Year Before Obamacare, & Family Premiums
            Increased 140%, According to eHealth.com Shopping” Datahttp://news.ehealthinsurance.com/news/average-individual-health-insurance-premiums-increased-99-since-2013-the-year-before-obamacare-family-premiums-increased-140-according-to-ehealth-com-shopping-data

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and insurance companies are still doing well. Please try to support the claims you have actually made.

          • Ron Roy

            Doing well ONLY ( AS I SAID ) because they keep raising premiums.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually what you said was they were going insolvent without some legislation. Which isn’t the case. So no, nothing you’ve posted really is congruent with what you said.

            Not to mention you’re doing all this as smokescreen to keep distracting from the fact that I’ve demonstrated rather well that if vaccines are causing a significant amount of medical problems then insurance companies are simply losing money for no rational reason.

            Hence your assertion that vaccines cause these problems is irrational. 🙂 But keep on dancing there Ron, it makes me happy!

          • Ron Roy

            ”Hence my assertion that vaccines cause these problems is rational But keep on dancing there Johnny, it makes me happy! FTFY

            Article by Roger Anghis

            ”The more we look at vaccines the more we see that they are
            unsafe but as with GMO products the dangers are simply ignored by
            government and the FDA. Yet we see that the government even
            produces information that proves they are incompetent concerning the
            safety of vaccines. Even though the mainstream media push
            the agenda that “vaccines are safe” the federal government has publicly
            released vaccine injury payout figures that prove vaccines routinely
            maim and kill children all across America.

            The government’s own document reveals statistics of over
            18,000 petitions filed for compensation by families of children who were
            seriously injured, maimed or killed by vaccines in the United States
            alone.

            The document reveals that a shocking 633 petitions for
            serious vaccine injury or death have been filed in the fiscal year 2017.
            This follows 1,120 petitions that were filed in 2016.

            The number of petitions filed is a tiny fraction of the total number of children who are seriously harmed by vaccine injuries,
            as doctors aggressively brainwash parents into believing that seizures,
            convulsions, autism and other serious conditions are never caused by
            vaccines. Furthermore, families of vaccine-injured children must hire an
            attorney to file a petition with the U.S. government, then wait
            anywhere from two to ten years for a decision by a “kangaroo court”
            that’s stacked against them. Thus, in nearly all cases of vaccine
            injury, parents are convinced into either believing that vaccines had
            nothing to do with the injury or that trying to fight the government for
            compensation is a complete waste of time. (This is all by design.)

            As a result, the real number of vaccine-injured children
            in America is at least 100 times larger, and more reasonably as much as
            1000 times larger when you consider “minor” brain damage, short-term
            seizures and other conditions that are difficult for parents to notice.

            In other words, there are at least 63,000 vaccine-injured
            children in America from 2017 alone, making vaccine injuries a leading
            cause of injury in children. This is all hidden and denied by the
            pharma-controlled media, of course, which wants you to focus on 48
            children with measles in Michigan rather than 63,000 vaccine-injured
            children all across America.[1]

            As America inches towards a police state depicted in 1984 even
            Republicans are jumping on the anti-freedom bandwagon and pushing for
            mandatory vaccines just to keep your job! A new bill, HR 1313,
            has been introduced by North Carolina Congresswoman Virginia Foxx (R)
            which is designed to give employers absolute power over the employee by
            mandating whatever they deem to be proper “heath prevention” measures.
            These measures would include submitting DNA records as well as mandatory vaccinations
            and other perceived “health preventive” measures designed for the
            “greater good” of the general public. The result of not complying with
            this new law of course would be losing your job.

            This kind of legislation thus gives large corporations
            government-like political status and god-like powers over the individual
            and further widens the gap between the rich and poor. But even more
            importantly this kind of legislation strips away intimate individual
            medical privacy and further solidifies the global control grid being
            created by the ruling elite as they attempt to complete their new
            world order plans of permanent human enslavement. No need to imagine how
            this “future” new world order enslavement will look like anymore. We’re
            seeing it all being rolled out in real-time and in broad daylight for
            the world to see.[2]

            America deserves the freedom to participate in the healthcare they
            want not what the government or even the large corporation demand.
            This North Carolina bill is actually part of Obamacare but is being
            pushed by RINO Republicans. Globalists have infiltrated both parties but
            try to make it look like they are doing thing for the benefit of the
            people when in reality it is to benefit government and big corporations.

            What is not being exposed to the general public is the fact that
            there are still many things about vaccines that are not understood by
            the medical community. I think these problems need to be solved
            before we continue to expose our kids and even adults to these
            potentially dangerous drugs. The US government
            department for Health Resources and Services Administration has recently
            released the running tally of the just-past-half-way-complete US Fiscal
            Year (FY) of 2017 for compensable vaccine injuries. It currently stands
            at over $142 million dollars. You read that right. That covers the 377
            cases that were thus far successful in obtaining compensation in the
            fiscal year 2017 through the heavily biased (to put it politely) system
            allegedly in place to redress the damage done by vaccines in the USA.

            At the rate things are going, we might expect the Vaccine
            Injury Compensation Program to pay out around $220 million or more by
            the close of FY 2017. To clarify, US Fiscal Year 2017 runs from October
            1st, 2016 to September 30th, 2017 – there’s still over four months
            remaining to rack up more carnage.

            According to the CDC’s website, there are “limitations in
            our knowledge of the risks associated with vaccines” and vaccinations
            have “the following problems”:

            Limited understanding of biological processes that underlie adverse events

            Incomplete and inconsistent information from individual reports

            Poorly constructed research studies (not enough people enrolled for the period of time)

            Inadequate systems to track vaccine side effects

            Few experimental studies were published in the medical literature.”1 (emphasis added)

            The above very revealing admissions from the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC)
            completely undercut the pathological overconfidence exhibited in the
            extreme portions of the community pushing for mandatory vaccination.[3]”

          • Jonathan Graham

            You must really hate that I keep bringing up the same point that pretty much destroys your claim that vaccines cause on average enormous amounts of medical problems. After all you keep trying to bury it with long irrelevant copy/pasta. Thanks again. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            No logical answer I see. Got it.I’ve been posting those articles on Facebook. That must piss you off.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You have made no argument, hence there is nothing to refute.

            However let’s get back to where you said:

            insurance companies encourage vaccinations the added costs are merely passed on to the consumer

            …and if a single company decides not to do so they gain all that money. So at that very second they are making MORE money than ALL of their competitors who are passing on this made-up extra cost and since giving financial encouragement to doctors to see their patients fully vaccinated probably results in a higher number of vaccinated patients. The company which stops would therefore gain all the secondary effects of having fewer vaccinated patients.

            …and yet nobody does this. Because vaccines reduce health costs.

          • Ron Roy

            ”and if a single company decides not to do so they gain all that money.”True except that they have now upset the MEDICAL MAFIA by not towing the vaccine propaganda line and for doing so they will incur the wrath of said MAFIA. The better business decision is to tow the line and simply increase premiums after all they also know prescription drugs also cause more harm than good yet they still cover those.

          • Jonathan Graham

            True

            Congratulations Ron, that may be the first time in your entire existence that you’ve learned something.

            except that they have now upset the MEDICAL MAFIA by not towing the vaccine propaganda line

            So your entire argument is…a ghost story? WhhooOOOOOOOooooo better not do this kids or the boogeyman will get you. Seriously?

            There is virtually no leverage, generally speaking that a pharmaceutical company has over an insurance company. In fact pharmaceutical companies probably need insurance companies more than the other way around. So your made up conspiracy doesn’t work.

            Not to mention that the insurer hasn’t done anything that really small insurance companies don’t do. Not all of them compensate doctors

            The better business decision

            There you go again Ron, despite your claim of running a business you have almost no idea how to do so. Throwing money away on a boondoggle is, in the words of no textbook or business leader the better business decision.

          • Proponent

            And.. there was an attempt to clean up this wall of copypasta.

          • Ron Roy

            No logical answer I see. Got it.

          • Ron Roy

            A disadvantage that is requiring a government/ taxpayer bailout to stay solvent.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Already refuted (not counting co-ops of course since there are only four of them)

            http://www.salon.com/2016/10/28/making-a-killing-under-obamacare-the-aca-gets-the-blame-for-rising-premiums-while-insurance-companies-are-reaping-massive-profits/

            While Americans continue to fork out more money, insurers are doing great.

            On Thursday, Aetna reported $734 million in profit on $15.8 billion in revenue for the three months that ended Sept. 30. The nation’s third-largest health insurer by revenue handily beat Wall Street estimates for the quarter. Chief Financial Officer Shawn M. Guertin cited “solid performance” in the company’s core health insurance business that offset “pressure” from its business under the Affordable Care Act.

            http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/15/news/economy/health-insurers-profits-obamacare/index.html.

            The industry’s net income rose to $13.1 billion, up 46% from a year earlier, according to a report from rating company A.M. Best.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/18/business/health-insurers-profit.html

            Since March 2010, when the Affordable Care Act was signed into law, the managed care companies within the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index — UnitedHealth, Aetna, Anthem, Cigna, Humana and Centene — have risen far more than the overall stock index. This is no small matter: The stock market soared during that period.

            The main losses appear to be market insurance sold under the ACA like the whole United Health thing and co-ops.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Perhaps the most striking visual data that suggest Adler and Ginsburg’s conclusions are wrong is an S&P Global Institute analysis
            of individual market per member per month (PMPM) costs from May. The
            figure below from the S&P report shows trends in PMPM costs for the
            individual and employer-provided markets. The ACA is responsible for the
            huge spike, clearly shown in the figure, in the individual market PMPM
            costs, which by early 2015 exceeded PMPM costs in the employer markets.

            The data shows a huge increase in PMPM costs in the individual market
            between 2013 and 2015. According to S&P, PMPM costs increased 38%
            between 2013 and 2014, and another 23% between 2014 and 2015. The
            two-year increase (69%) is the product of the two single-year increases.

            The comparable PMPM cost increase in the employer market, which the
            ACA affected much less, amounted to about 11%. Assuming an 11% increase
            would have happened in the individual market absent the ACA, a very
            rough initial guess would be that the ACA increased individual market
            PMPM costs by about 58% between 2013 and 2015. As previously noted,
            premiums did not increase by this full 58% because of insurers’ large
            losses and the large subsidies they received.

            It is worth noting that the individual market includes both
            ACA-compliant plans as well as non-ACA-compliant plans. If only
            ACA-compliant plans were included in the post-2013 data, the spike would
            likely be much larger.
            https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2016/07/28/overwhelming-evidence-that-obamacare-caused-premiums-to-increase-substantially/#593d675615be

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes premiums go up when you can’t keep separating people with pre-existing conditions into high-risk pools (or deny them coverage altogether). However as stated by several other sources insurance companies are doing fine and not, as you keep claiming on the brink of bankruptcy.

            Again this is all just an attempt to distract from the fact that I took your argument against insurers validating the safety of vaccines and put it down like ol’ yeller. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Sounds like vaccines are LUCRATIVE . Pro’s have difficulty understanding that word.

          • Ron Roy

            ”Ron’s telling the truth when he says hundreds of thousands of US public health and
            private healthcare workers willingly falsify epidemiological data”FTFY https://www.propublica.org/article/what-weve-learned-from-four-years-of-diving-into-dollars-for-docs

            http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/09/find-out-if-your-doctor-takes-payments-from-drug-companies/index.htm

          • Ron Roy

            Studies…. studies emm oh you mean studies published in these journals:Editor of NEJM: “It is simply no longer possible to
            believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the
            judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no
            pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two
            decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine…No one knows the
            total amount provided by drug companies to physicians, but I estimate from the
            annual reports of the top 9 U.S.-based drug companies that it comes to tens of
            billions of dollars a year in North America alone.By such means, the
            pharmaceutical industry has gained enormous control over how doctors evaluate
            and use its own products. Its extensive ties to physicians, particularly senior
            faculty at prestigious medical schools, affect the results of research, the way
            medicine is practiced, and even the definition of what constitutes a disease.”
            https://ethicalnag.org/2009

          • 655321
          • Ron Roy

            All these ” studies were fully or partially funded by drug companies. The key to health is NUTRITION PERIOD! I tell people if you really want to confuse a doctor, when he prescribes a drug.say to him: ” Gee doc I didn’t know my body was deficient in that particular drug.” And watch the stupid expression in his face. . .

          • Mike Stevens

            “All these studies were fully or partially funded by drug companies.”

            None of them were, Ron.
            It’s amazing how readily antivaxers will lie to maintain thier delusions.

          • Ben

            It’s amazing how many comments Mike posts. I have to admit, he’s a better PR agent that most but it’s still pathetic what he does.

            These pro-vaxxers live in a strange fiction, where ethylmercury and aluminum becomes safe once it’s in a syringe.

            We call this the syringe-paradox.

            But we’re not talking about a heroin injection in Oakland, the injections must be placed by nurse in a white outfit. Only then can you guarantee its safety. Imagine what an MD can do…

            It’s some kind of woo. Paul Offit could probably inject 10 mg of ricin and live. This is how the warm fuzzy blanket of the medical establishment can transmutate known toxins into vitamins.

            Right Mike? It’s safe when it’s in a syringe delivered by medical personnel and frank neurotoxin everywhere else.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Anti-vaxxers live in an even stranger fiction where things proven repeatedly over decades by numerous research papers covering many thousands of subjects, suddenly become The Most Dangerous Items In The World just because very, very, very tiny amounts of that substance is found in some vaccines, and where something like ethylmercury that doesn’t bioaccumulate and is cleared completely magically transmutes into something more dangerous than the harmful METHYLmercury found in higher quantities in tuna fish.

            Because when something is in a vaccine there is not way in the anti-vaxxer universe that those things can be safe and can help save lives.

          • Ben

            and where something like ethylmercury that doesn’t bioaccumulate and is cleared completely magically transmutes into something more dangerous than the harmful METHYLmercury found in higher quantities in tuna fish.

            You sound like a moron by saying that ethylmercury doesn’t accumulate.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Dude – if you are unable to tell the difference between ethyl and methyl, don’t ever make anyone a cocktail.

            Methyl alcohol is antifreeze; ethyl alcohol is rum

            In the mean time: https://www.decodedscience.org/ethyl-methyl-mercury-difference/25234

          • Ben

            Derp. No crap moron.

            I was talking about your claim that ethylmercury doesn’t bioaccumulate. This is a astounding stupid thing to say.

          • Well_Actualy

            Hey numbnuts – why don’t you try actually providing proof your your claims?

            @Cardinal Fang gave you something to read.

            Don’t just go “no you’re wrong” because it says something that your little anti-vaxx mind can’t deal with, namely that your idea that ethyl mercury bioaccumulates in the same way the methyl mercury you get from eating tuna can.

            Maybe that proof might even come from somewhere reliable rather than one of those anti-vaxx sites you keep mindlessly copying from

          • Ben

            Maybe that proof might even come from somewhere reliable rather than one of those anti-vaxx sites …

            It does. It comes straight from textbooks and published articles.

            You’re simply trying to discredit me with your drive-by stupid. Why don’t you post a study showing that “ethylmercury doesn’t accumulate”. CardinalFag is the one who made that stupid claim.

          • Cardinal Fang

            Homophobia and ignorance in one post Ben. Nice.

            You want evidence saying ethyl mercury doesn’t bioaccumulate?

            Challenge accepted

            How about the WHO saying it doesn’t accumulate? http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/en/

            Or Pichichero et al, Pediatrics 2008 – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245396

            Or Clarkson. Environ Health Perspect 2002 – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834460

            Or Magos. J Appl Toxicol 2001 – http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jat.721/abstract;jsessionid=71E39E3B8FA13D5476B5EA78F1C8CFF5.f03t03

            Or Dorea et al J Appl Toxicol. 2013 – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23401210
            Or any number of other papers on the subject.
            And given that the anti-vaxx industry managed to scaremonger enough that thiomerosal was taken out of most childhood vaccines purely as a precaution and even though the evidence showed it was safe in the quantities found in vaccines anyway, I would suggest that this is just another attempt by you to take an ingredient in vaccines and go “oooh look scary, panic, be frightened”
            You say that your information comes from textbooks and published articles but your claims seem noticeable short on actual references or citations.

          • Ben

            Did you actually read those studies?

            Apparently not. Dr. Magos says no such thing. He says that they have similar plasma half-lives but you have to quantify the amount of protein-bound mercury that stays in the soft tissues.

            You need to actually cite an experiment and tell me which data indicates that it “does not bioaccumulate.”

            It looks like you just posted a few studies that you think might support your propaganda campaign without reading them.

          • Well_Actualy

            It’s obvious you didn’t read it because it blows out of the water the idea that ethyl mercury causes harm.

            And I guess your little robot mind can’t handle the fact that once again you’re wrong and your attempts to scaremonger about thimerosal is just the latest in the line of bullsh*t scaremongering you’ve attempted.

          • Ben

            It’s obvious you didn’t read it because it blows out of the water the idea that ethyl mercury causes harm.

            No it doesn’t. You haven’t even read the study. You’re just pretending that it says something that it doesn’t.

            It’s obvious you didn’t read it because it blows…

            You blow!

          • Ben

            You say that your information comes from textbooks and published articles but your claims seem noticeable short on actual references or citations.

            Here’s just a few that I used to write an article once. I have read the majority of these. These form a good chunk of the chemical and epidemiological proof, although this is just a tiny fraction.

            • The Chemistry of Aluminum and Silicon in Relation to Alzheimer’s Disease
            • Chronic Aluminum Intake Causes Alzheimer’s Disease: Applying Sir Austin Bradford Hill’s Causality Criteria
            • Aluminum and Silica in Drinking Water and the Risk of Alzheimer’s Disease or Cognitive Decline: Findings From 15-Year Follow-up of the PAQUID Cohort
            • Disturbance of cerebral function in people exposed to drinking water contaminated with aluminium sulphate: retrospective study of the Camelford water incident
            • Aluminum and Alzheimer’s Disease: After a Century of Controversy, Is there a Plausible Link?
            • Evidence for Participation of Aluminum in Neurofibrillary Tangle Formation and Growth in Alzheimer’s Disease
            • Aluminium and Alzheimer’s Disease: The Science that Describes the Link
            • Aluminum in hippocampal neurons from humans with Alzheimer’s disease
            • Aluminum Modifies the Properties of Alzheimer’s Disease PHFτ Proteins in vivo and in vitro
            • Interaction of Aluminum with PHFτ in Alzheimer’s Disease Neurofibrillary Degeneration Evidenced by Desferrioxamine-Assisted Chelating Autoclave Method
            • Demonstration of aluminum in amyloid fibers in the cores of senile plaques in the brains of patients with Alzheimer’s disease

          • Cardinal Fang

            Here’s the thing. Your hypothesis is that aluminium ***causes*** Alzheimer’s. What your references say is something different. You say you used them to write an article once. I’m assuming then that reading them properly you’d have realised they don’t support your hypothesis. If you don’t mind, I’ll give the authors and journals as well, as it helps when citing papers to give this so people can look them up.

            ->The Chemistry of Aluminum and Silicon in Relation to Alzheimer’s Disease (Birchall and Chappell. Clin Chem. 1988)

            Paper says there is a “debated relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer’s disease”. Not the certainty you are claiming. The conclusion of the paper says “The interactions in aqueous systems containing aluminum, citrate, phosphate, and silicic acid are extraordinarily pH-dependent, changing within the pH range experienced in human physiology”. Absolutely NO mention of
            aluminium being a causative agent for Alzheimer’s.

            -> Chronic Aluminum Intake Causes Alzheimer’s Disease: Applying Sir Austin Bradford Hill’s Causality Criteria (Walton. J Alzheimers
            Dis. 2014)

            So you have 1 paper that says aluminium meets the Bradford-Hill criteria for epidemiological evidence of a causal relationship between a presumed cause and an observed effect. I can point to one that says aluminium DOESN’T meet the criteria: http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC4131942/. No doubt you will dismiss this paper because it doesn’t fit in with your
            preconceived ideas

            -> Aluminum and Silica in Drinking Water and the Risk of Alzheimer’s Disease or Cognitive Decline: Findings From 15-Year Follow-up of the PAQUID Cohort (Rondeau et al. Am J Epidemiol. 2009)

            Small study (n=46). Also doesn’t say aluminium is the causative agent for Alzheimer’s. Conclusions says “Further studies are needed to settle the debate over the link between aluminum or
            silica in drinking water and neurological disorders and cognitive impairment”.
            So again, not proving your claim that Al causes Alzheimer’s.

            -> Aluminum and Alzheimer’s Disease: After a Century of Controversy, Is there a Plausible Link? (Tomljenovic. J Alzheimers Dis. 2011)

            Ooooh, a paper by someone (Tomljenovic) who makes a living out of being anti-vaxx and has a history of making dubious claims about
            vaccines (including in papers that have been withdrawn), and who gets funding from the anti-vaxx Dwoskin Foundation (see: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/08/and-global-warming-is-caused-by-the-decr/ and http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/retracted-hpv-vaccine-article-shaw-tomljenovic/ and http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/aluminum-adjuvant-vaccines-cherry-picking/.

            Yet somehow even she can’t come up with evidence of a causal relationship between Al and aluminium, just saying that CHRONIC ingestion may a risk factor in developing Alzheimer’s (just like obesity, smoking, genetics, high blood pressure, heavy alcohol intake etc). Vaccination, as has been pointed out, does not constitute chronic exposure.

            -> Evidence for Participation of Aluminum in Neurofibrillary Tangle Formation and Growth in Alzheimer’s Disease (Walton. J
            Alzheimers Dis. 2010)

            Yet another paper that makes NO mention of aluminium being a
            causative agent for Alzheimer’s. Why were you citing it to try and prove your contention that aluminium CAUSES Alzheimer’s? (For that matter, why are you still persisting in posting about Alzheimer’s in a comment thread about vaccines unless you are trying to scaremonger about aluminium?)

            -> Aluminium and Alzheimer’s Disease: The Science that Describes the Link (E. Chris Exley)

            Chris Exley works at the Lennard-Jones Centre, a UK-based research foundation that focuses on physics, quantum mechanics and chemistry. Yet he seems to crop up a lot claiming that the aluminium in vaccines is bad. As far as I can tell he doesn’t have any significant credentials in immunology, neurobiology, or almost any important aspect of vaccine research. Now one would have thought that if you’re going to comment on vaccines in the manner he does, that one would have appropriate expertise. And he’s another one that has received funding from the Dwoskin Foundation (see: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/aluminum-adjuvant-vaccines-cherry-picking/ ).

            But on to the book itself. Like pretty much all of the references you’ve cited so far, this one DOESN’T claim that it causes Alzheimer’s, just more of the things we do know, such as it’s in higher concentrations in the brains of Alzheimer’s patients, it is found in the tangles, and that giving large amounts to animals induces similar but NOT identical tangles. In other words, another reference suggesting that Al may play a progression in Alzheimer’s but it doesn’t cause it.

            • Aluminum in hippocampal neurons from humans with Alzheimer’s disease (Walton, Neurotoxicology. 2006)

            A third one from Walton. A cynic would wonder why so many
            papers from a small number of people keep cropping up in your list, unless the list was being cherry-picked to support a pre-existing viewpoint. It is rather noticeable that if looking at papers about Alzheimer’s and aluminium how often the names Walton and Exley keep coming up in papers that claim a causal link, when major epidemiological studies such as this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17525096 keep failing to find any link between them, and when the major Alzheimer’s groups like the Alzheimer’s Society don’t think Al causes Alzheimer’s either

            -> Aluminum Modifies the Properties of Alzheimer’s Disease PHFτ Proteins in vivo and in vitro (Shin et al. J Neurosci. 1994)

            Another one making absolutely NO mention of aluminium being a causative agent for Alzheimer’s. The discussion says “These and other questions concerning the pathogenesis of plaques, tangles, neuron loss, and other molecular lesions in the AD brain HAVE YET TO BE FULLY ANSWERED” (my emphasis). So knock down one more that doesn’t support your claim about Al causing Alzheimer’s

            -> Interaction of Aluminum with PHFτ in Alzheimer’s Disease Neurofibrillary Degeneration Evidenced by Desferrioxamine-Assisted Chelating Autoclave Method (Murayama. Am J Pathol. 1999)

            Reminds us that Al is “an environmental risk factor in the etiology of AD” (NOTE: risk factor NOT causative agent). Another one down then.

            -> Demonstration of aluminum in amyloid fibers in the cores of senile plaques in the brains of patients with Alzheimer’s disease. (Yumoto et al. J Inorg Biochem. 2009)

            From the paper: “Aluminum (Al) exposure has been reported to be a RISK FACTOR for Alzheimer’s disease (senile dementia of Alzheimer type), although the role of Al in the etiology of Alzheimer’s disease REMAINS CONTROVERSIAL” (my emphasis). Again, not proving your contention that aluminium causes Alzheimer’s.

            So round and round we go again. Despite the claims that Ben likes to make that aluminium causes Alzheimer’s, it should seem apparent, again, that that contention is not proven. Many of these studies are interesting to be sure and necessary work in the ongoing quest to actually find out what causes Alzheimer’s and makes it progress – but they don’t prove your case. At best, they suggest that aluminium can be found in the tangles that are found in the brains of Alzheimer’s patients – which, as has
            been mentioned previously , no-one yet knows the implications of this, whether causative, incidental (it has been suggested that as the brains of Alzheimer’s patients shrink, it might just be the aluminium gets more concentrated), or whether Al might play a part in the progression but not the origin of the disease. And at best, a few of the papers suggests that CHRONIC aluminium exposure might be something to add to the long list of risk factors for Alzheimer’s (although we know that the biggest risk factors are age, family history (if you have a close relative with the disease you’re more likely to get it), genetics (there are certain genes that increase the likelihood of developing the disease), gender (you’re more likely to get AD if you’re female), smoking, high blood pressure, heavy drinking, an unhealthy diet (particularly one high in saturated fats),and head injuries).

            It’s interesting that (to remind you yet again) that none of the major Alzheimer’s groups in the world, who keep up to date with the current scientific evidence, think that aluminium is a causative agent, and I’m struggling to even find one that puts in on their list of risk factors to try and avoid, suggesting that if aluminium is a risk factor, then they don’t consider it a major one.

            So why to you persist in your certainty that aluminium causes Alzheimer’s when the science still doesn’t back you up?

            And why do you persist in talking about Alzheimer’s in a discussion about vaccines? It is not relevant to the issue (although the anti-vaxx industry likes to pretend that there’s something wrong with the tiny
            amounts of aluminium adjuvants in vaccines by pointing out that CHRONIC EXCESS exposure to aluminium might cause harm)

          • Ben

            This is how stupid you are:

            -> Evidence for Participation of Aluminum in Neurofibrillary Tangle Formation and Growth in Alzheimer’s Disease (Walton. J
            Alzheimers Dis. 2010)
            Yet another paper that makes NO mention of aluminium being a
            causative agent for Alzheimer’s. Why were you citing it to try and prove your contention that aluminium CAUSES Alzheimer’s? (For that matter, why are you still persisting in posting about Alzheimer’s in a comment thread about vaccines unless you are trying to scaremonger about aluminium?)

            Neurofibrillary tangles are Alzhiemer’s Disease, this is how it was originally classified.

            Besides, unless you spent all day yesterday and today reading then you haven’t actually read these articles. That would make your statement…

            Yet another paper that makes NO mention of aluminium being a
            causative agent for Alzheimer’s.

            …a total lie. You’re post is merely thinly–veiled propaganda.

          • Ben

            -> Aluminum Modifies the Properties of Alzheimer’s Disease PHFτ Proteins in vivo and in vitro (Shin et al. J Neurosci. 1994)

            Another one making absolutely NO mention of aluminium being a causative agent for Alzheimer’s.

            Only if you don’t actually read it.

          • Well_Actualy

            Awww. Is ickle Robot Ben feeling a little butthurt because once again his ickle fetish about aluminium is being taken apart. You might want to give your little robot brain a rest – it must be tired out from all that aimless repetition (actually scratch that. It’s clear that you’re not actually using that robot brain to actually read other posts or think how rubbish your little fetish is).

            You still can’t deal with the fact that all the experts have long since accepted that aluminium doesn’t cause Alzheimer’s as evidenced by the fact that NONE of the big Alzheimer’s groups anywhere in the world say it’s a cause or even a risk factor. They’re moved on to look at things that might actually cause the disease. Are you worried Mommy won’t love you any more if you were to admit that your fetish is built on horse manure?

            Maybe you could turn your little robot brain on to answering @Cardinal Fang’s question before you slope off to put ice on all the burn: why do you keep trying to bore us with irrelevent stuff about Alzheimer’s? This is a comment section ABOUT FRICKING VACCINES.

            Maybe your robot brain hasn’t realised that vaccines are given to kids. Alzheimer’s affects people in the later stages of their lives.

            You think Mommy would be unhappy with you if you pootled off to some other comment section where they’re actually talking about Alzheimer’s rather than keeping clogging up a vaccine thread? Is that why you’re still here? Or is it that your little buddies in your anti-vaxx cult might be cross with you when you report back to them that people weren’t buying your scaremongering about aluminium because they’d long since worked out that trying to pretend the really tiny amounts of aluminium in vaccines are harm by posting irrelevant b*ll*ck about dementia just isn’t working and that you’ve been rumbled as a homophobe who doesn’t care about human life.

          • Ben

            Get some help. That was 326 words of 6th-grade trailer-park stupid.

          • sabelmouse

            and obsessed with the butt.

          • Well_Actualy

            Given you keep repeating the same irrelevent b*ll*cks over and over again, you need to look at your definition of stupid.

            Maybe it’s a diversion to avoid having to turn your little robot brain to answering @Cardinal
            Fang’s question: why do
            you keep trying to bore us with irrelevent stuff about Alzheimer’s? This
            is a comment section ABOUT FRICKING VACCINES.

          • Ben

            I am talking about mechanisms of aluminum toxicity.

            You keep interrupting me with your denials, trailer-park stupid, and ignorance.

          • Well_Actualy

            The mechanism is this: you need to be exposed to LARGE QUANTITIES over long periods of time (i.e. large scale CHRONIC exposue). Even your own citations say that. The levels needed to even start causing problems is about 100 times the amount found in healthy people.

            But vaccines DO NOT have large amounts of aluminium do they, and it’s NOT chronic exposure is it?

            During the first 6 months of life, infants only about 4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. 4 milligrams over 6 months = A REALLY TINY AMOUNT

            Vaccines are injected into muscle, so the contents don’t even go straight into the blood. In the blood, 90% of aluminium gets bound to transferrin, and virtually all the rest gets bound by citrate. Approximately 98 % of the aluminium in the blood is excreted in the urine, and to a lesser extent bile. The unabsorbed aluminum is excreted in the stool. A diminishingly small amount may be retained. We’re talking about a minute fraction of two hundredths of sod all.

            So I will say again. You keep repeating the same IRRELEVANT b*ll*cks over and over again.

            It’s irrelevant because vaccines are given to kids. Alzheimer’s affects people in the later stages of their lives.
            It’s irrelevant because NONE of the big Alzheimer’s groups anywhere in the world who are actually keeping abreast of what the current science says (rather than holding on to some deep seated fetish) say Al is a cause or even a major risk factor for Alzheimer’s in the first place.
            It’s irrelevant because Al toxicity happens ONLY AT HIGH QUANTITIES, and vaccines have vanishingly TINY QUANITITIES.

            Tell me: are you really so stupid that you genuinely cannot tell the difference between the concepts of large and small?

            Or maybe it’s still a ploy so that ickle Robot Ben can try and not answer @Cardinal Fang’s question: why do you keep trying to bore us with irrelevent stuff about Alzheimer’s? This is a comment section ABOUT FRICKING VACCINES.

          • Ben

            During the first 6 months of life, infants only about 4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. 4 milligrams over 6 months = A REALLY TINY AMOUNT

            This is more than they absorb from milk.

            It’s irrelevant because vaccines are given to kids. Alzheimer’s affects people in the later stages of their lives.

            Young people can get aluminum dementia as well. Aluminum crosslinks tau in young people just the same.

            Tell me: are you really so stupid that you genuinely cannot tell the difference between the concepts of large and small?

            So it’s “small” if you say it is?

            Tell me: How much ricin in required to kill someone? How much LSD is required for psychedelic effects?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4896038f0e158060703175347d170420622a21e999c52b89b63aec40a1bf512d.png

            You see the difference in aluminum conetration? Given a 1 kilogram brain, this would amount to less than 10 milligrams.

            Would be volunteer to have 10 milligrams of aluminum placed in your brain?

          • AutismDadd

            Trailer Park stupid….my ribs…

          • Ben

            He’s the same person as White & Nerdy. Nobody else cranks the psycho-buffoon dial up to 11.

            [He’s not just any kind of stupid; he’s trailer-park stupid.]

          • sabelmouse

            yup, and vaccines cause alzheimers, dear.

          • Well_Actualy

            Evidence please mouse? Oh right, there isn’t any.

          • AutismDadd

            Its obvious who lost based on the regressive reaction from you buttcrack

          • Well_Actualy
          • Ben

            On to plan #2: Clog the thread with meaningless crap.

            Why don’t you sneak back under the tent flap where you belong?

          • AutismDadd

            And most of your links are predictable pro-vaccine mantra

          • Well_Actualy

            Awww. Is ickle anti-vaxxer feeling a little butt hurt because someone is daring to post actual facts rather than the lies that the anti-vaxx cult relies on to try and frighten people.

          • AutismDadd

            Thanks for making it quite clear you are an immature twit.

          • AutismDadd

            drive-by stupid….priceless

          • Ben

            PS: I have posted 500 comments per month. Travis (Ben) has posted over 700pm and he thinks it is “amazing” how many comments I post?

            I don’t find that “amazing” Mike. What I find amazing about you is how you can spend 8 hours [sic!] straight in a bathroom stall feeding on truckers through the glory-hole.

            What do you get out of it Mike?

            It can’t be the money. At $5 a throw you would be better-off doing something else.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Actually sharing toothbrushes is just an example. You could catch Hepatitis B from putting something in your mouth that someone with the virus has also had in their mouth, it appears. It can also be asymptomatic, especially in babies and children, who also like to put stuff in their mouth! I wonder if there have been any cases, out of the ones where nobody knows how they got it, caused by a baby with undetected Hep B chewing on a toy in a childcare setting, that other infants then also put in their mouth

          • ciaparker2

            That risk is theoretical. Yes, the saliva of someone infected with hep-B has a small concentration of the virus: whether it is enough to infect another person is uncertain. There have only been a couple of cases in which that might have been the vector of transmission, but it was not proven. There have been many cases of an uninfected child sharing drinking glasses with an infected person, yet failing to contract the disease himself. An Australian study done to ascertain if the virus could be transmitted among schoolchildren found that it could not.

            How many babies with undetected hep-B do you think there are? Or were before the extremely dangerous vaccine started to be given to all newborns in 1991? Again, there were only 360 reported cases a year in the US among children between birth and ten years old. The risk of autism or other kinds of disability, including seizure disorders and M.S., is far higher from the vaccine than from the disease.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Theoretical, but possible.
            .
            Do you have any proof that the Hep B vaccine causes autism? Its given long before any autistic traits can appear. You don’t know that she wasn’t autistic from birth, in fact, apparently doesn’t she have a gene known to be linked to autism?
            .
            Note, correlation does not equal causation.
            .
            Also your daughter did not have encephalitis. There’s no proof. In fact, the chances of her having it are tiny considering you didn’t take her to the doctor, but she still lived.
            MRI or it didn’t happen.

          • ciaparker2

            Well, duh. Judy Converse discusses that point in her book When Your Doctor is Wrong: Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism. You should read it. That’s right, the major sign of autism in children is the failure to develop the ability to use language to communicate. About a third are never able to talk at all, and another third are low-verbal and can understand and use language only at a very basic level. So when newborns react to the extremely dangerous hep-B vaccine, usually given on the day of birth and often without the knowledge or consent of the parents, as was the case with Judy and me, then yeah, that’s right, the encephalitis occurs a year before any language development can be expected. So? Does that make anyone feel any better about the devastation of his child’s life by the vaccine encephalitis?

            Many infants who suffer from vaccine encephalitis do not live: Mike Belkin’s infant daughter was killed by the hep-B vaccine. It took Judy weeks of the encephalitic screaming before a doctor would consent to look at her son, and when they finally did, it was OMG, he’s about to DIE! How long has this screaming been going on? MUST be meningitis! (They tested him for it, and it wasn’t.) No one at the hospital even mentioned the vaccine or encephalitis. Babies who scream constantly and inconsolably for three hours or longer within a week or so of the vaccine should be presumed to have suffered vaccine encephalitis. While some die, most survive, and in most cases the baby goes on to recover the weight lost and thrive, and no one knows how severely his brain was damaged until the time comes for language milestones and he misses them all. Colic does not occur in the first week of life, when reactions to the vaccine given at birth often occur. And it does not interfere with feeding. All parents should read Judy’s book, also Dr. Harold Buttram’s Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine Encephalitis? And they must be aware of the stranglehold that the vaccine companies have on the medical industry. But the arrangement is so comfortable for doctors that most would happily remain in it for their own benefit. But it’s not for the benefit of your baby or your family.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            There’s no proof that the Hep B vaccination causes autism. Books don’t count. When I ask for evidence, it needs to be peer reviewed scientific papers. Books aren’t required to tell the truth, but scientific papers are.
            .
            Encephalitis is actually a very rare side effect of some vaccines, although as far as I know, not Hep B. Its rare though, very rare, but the diseases they prevent cause encephalitis in much higher numbers. The rate of encephalitis actually went down once vaccination became common, as illnesses like measles were a big cause.
            .
            Was this baby who died actually diagnosed with encephalitis? What was his official cause of death?
            .
            Do you have any proof that many cases of encephalitis just cause inconsolable screaming for a few days then go away on their own? All reputable sources on encephalitis say it is serious, mention different symptoms, and say that hospitalisation (usually in ICU) is required. Are there any peer reviewed scientific articles describing this mild form of encephalitis you claim your daughter had, instead of the usual presentation where you can die without medical treatment.
            .
            Also encephalitis isn’t a “presumed to be” diagnosis, its a get yourself to the hospital before you die kind of diagnosis. There’s no self diagnosis here, and no book can convince me otherwise as that’s not how medical science works.

          • ciaparker2

            No, books don’t count for agenda-driven illiterates, do they?

            http://www.adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2007/06/no-evidence-of-any-link.html

            http://canaryparty.org/commentary/research-that-shows-that-vaccines-can-cause-autism/

            And then we have the dogma-controlled vaccine publishing business. Every study has to say in the first paragraph that there’s no connection between vaccines and autism, OR it won’t be published, and that’s that. And then many studies go on to explain how vaccines really do cause autism.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5244035/

            And why do you think that only some vaccines can cause encephalitis? Any vaccine can do so. It’s nothing to do with the vaccine per se, but rather with the individual immune system of the person vaccinated. ANY vaccine is designed to irritate the immune system with the sudden stealth invasion of pathogens, chemicals, and highly antigenic organic material. The irritation forces inflammation and the production of the desired antibodies. Everyone reacts with inflammation, many believe that everyone reacts to some degree with brain inflammation (encephalitis), which may or may not do perceptible damage. But many react with so much brain inflammation that it does stroke-like damage, often causing autism, ADHD, seizure disorders, and/or learning and behavioral disabilities.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            No, books don’t count on their own in scientific debate (obviously there are books about science, but the information contained in there should be backed up by scientific studies, they are not a first source of information). No scientist skips peer review, doesn’t publish in a journal and instead publishes a book for the general public. Books don’t have to be checked for accuracy.
            .
            I shall have to get back to the massive list of studies you have linked to on those pages, it will take a while to read through all of them.
            .
            Also here are some more proving vaccines don’t cause autism. You read those, and I will read yours.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25898051
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25562790
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22350041
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16555271
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1116011/
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15259839
            .
            This one could be interesting, its about vaccine encephalopathy:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603512/
            .
            Also, which theory do you subscribe to, when it comes to vaccines causing autism, I notice there are many studies in that link that contradict eachother. Is it thimerosal, a so far undiscovered to science form of mild encephalitis following vaccination (but not seen in other things that can cause the normal kind of encephalitis like wild caught viruses), or the MMR? It cant be all three.

            Why do I think that only some vaccines can (very rarely, hundreds of thousands of times more unlikely than getting it from the disease itself) cause encephalitis, and not all? Because not all of them have it mentioned anywhere. Ive seen a few sources saying that the MMR has a very tiny chance, like this one.
            .
            “In the section Post-Marketing Reports, encephalitis (infection of the brain) was added to reflect the receipt of reports following ProQuad vaccination. Previously, this adverse reaction was listed under adverse events seen after MMR or varicella vaccination. Encephalitis has been reported approximately once for every 3 million doses of MMR vaccine. Post-marketing surveillance of more than 400 million doses distributed worldwide (1978 to 2003) indicates that encephalitis is rarely reported after MMR vaccination. In no case has it been shown conclusively that encephalitis was caused by a vaccine virus infection of the central nervous system. There was no proven causal relationship between ProQuad and any of the reported cases that prompted the change in the label.”
            https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm070425.htm
            .
            The others seem to be either things like Mercola, which are untrustworthy, and things about the Japanese Encephalitis vaccine (which prevents a kind of encephalitis), as well as websites that have “vaccine” and “encephalitis” on the same page, saying that measles can cause encephalitis, and to protect from that there is a vaccine.

          • Proponent

            ciaparker2: “And then many studies go on to explain how vaccines really do cause autism.”

            Then, ciaparker2 cites this paper..

            Frontiers in Psychiatry | “Temporal Association of Certain Neuropsychiatric Disorders Following Vaccination of Children and Adolescents: A Pilot Case–Control Study”

            Here is the first line from the abstract..

            “Although the association of the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine with autism spectrum disorder has been convincingly disproven.. .”

            … and then goes on to state/hypothesize a temporal association with some other behavioural disorders and psychological illnesses.

            What can we conclude from all of this?

            ciaparker2 does not:
            i) read her sources/references
            ii) does not understand her sources/references
            iii) is sadly misinformed

            Next?

      • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

        Is anyone forcing all newborns to take a Hep B shot? I don’t think so.

        • ciaparker2

          It was customary for many years to give the vaccine to all newborns, born to healthy mothers or not, without permission, as they did to my baby. And I went to the pediatrician a month before she was born only to say that I didn’t want her to get that vaccine when she was born. But they gave it to her, and she reacted as so many do, with encephalitis and brain damage. Autism.

          • ciaparker2

            How odd, Kevin’s comment is also Teflon-protected, the way Mike’s was, and I can’t reply to it. The only babies who get hep-B are born to infected mothers, who are routinely tested during pregnancy. The vaccine is appropriate for these babies, as, dangerous as the vaccine is, the disease is extremely dangerous for babies. The disease is not transmitted casually, and those past infancy who get it (it’s blood and body fluid-borne, like AIDS) usually make a complete recovery with permanent immunity in several weeks or months. It’s only a small number, usually alcoholics or drug addicts who have already compromised their liver by their addictions, who go on to develop cirrhosis or liver cancer.

          • FallsAngel

            What ignorance you have about Hep B. See this: http://disq.us/p/1ixalky
            And this: http://disq.us/p/1ixaly0
            Also, living with someone with Hep B is another risk factor. That can change overnight if someone new joins the family. And, 30% of cases have no known transmission source. But you’ve heard all this before. It just goes in one ear and out the other.

          • vforba

            not true they give hep b to every baby born in the US. Do you even have children?

          • ciaparker2

            Yes, I do. As as you have found, they DO give the hep-B vaccine to every newborn in the US unless the parents put up a STRONG fight to prevent its being given. And yes, I have a daughter who reacted to the hep-B vaccine, given without permission at midnight at the hospital the day she was born. She reacted as so many thousands have, with four days and nights of endless, inconsolable screaming from the vaccine encephalitis. She was later diagnosed with autism, and, at 17, is still very low verbal and extremely delayed developmentally, and will never be independent.

            “The Hepatitis B Vaccine Dose at Birth

            It’s hard to imagine putting your newborn through the pain of a shot. But a little stick early in life is an important
            first step to protecting your baby against a deadly disease.

            All babies should get the first shot of hepatitis B vaccine before they leave the hospital. This shot acts as a safety
            net, reducing the risk of getting the disease from moms or family members who may not know they are infected with hepatitis B.

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/child/hepb.html

            Evaluate Your Birthing
            Options – If you do not want your newborn to get a hepatitis b shot at birth, you should immediately
            evaluate the birthing options you have in terms of where your baby will be born. Find out if the hospital or birthing center you have chosen routinely
            gives newborn infants hepatitis B shots. Newborn vaccination policies may be hard
            to find because it is often included under “Standard of Care” language in
            policy manuals. Some hospitals or birthing centers may be more or less
            flexible about allowing exceptions to hepatitis B vaccination policies for
            newborns.

            Many hospitals and birthing centers, as a routine matter, administer hepatitis b vaccine on the basis of what is known as “standing orders”, that is that they have written orders in place from the time of admission to check you and your baby’s vital signs, administer certain medications and emergency treatments, and when to contact the doctor or nurse midwife if certain
            circumstances arise. Pediatricians have the ability to change one or more “standing orders” for a particular baby. Routinely administered care is not necessarily the most appropriate or best care for all mothers and babies. If you would prefer that your baby not be given the hepatitis b vaccine within 12 hours of birth as recommended by the CDC, you should discuss this
            with your baby’s pediatrician and ask that the “standing orders” for your baby be written accordingly.”

            http://www.nvic.org/faqs/infant-hepatitis-b.aspx

          • akell47a

            You are correct, but it is a standard practice in the corrupt medical industry for newborns to be vaccinated even when the parents have put their refusal in writing and made it clear to the staff. They’ll do it when the parent steps out, or in some other surreptitious fashion.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, bull puckey! We’ve heard this tripe before, cia.

          • JGC

            Your evidence demonstrating that the Hepatitis B vaccine is causally associated with autism spectrum disorders would be what, cia?
            Oh, that’s right. you don’t hav any

          • Ron Roy

            ”Oh, that’s right. You don’t have any” Famous shill saying.

          • JGC

            In this case it’s a simple statement of fact.

          • Ron Roy

            In your heavily bia$ed opinion.

          • JGC

            My opinion may be wrong, but it is not biased: CIA has to my knowledge offered no evidence at any time supporting the existence of a causal association between hepatitis b vaccine an autism spectrum or other neurodevelopmental orders.
            If you can point me to an occasion where she has provided such evidence I’ll happily revise my opinion. Care to try?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            Here’s recent study (in mice) from the Journal of Toxiclogy on the aluminum adjuvant.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27908630

            “We conclude that Alhydrogel® injected at low dose in mouse
            muscle may selectively induce long-term Al cerebral accumulation and
            neurotoxic effects. To explain this unexpected result, an avenue that
            could be explored in the future relates to the adjuvant size since the
            injected suspensions corresponding to the lowest dose, but not to the
            highest doses, exclusively contained small agglomerates in the
            bacteria-size range known to favour capture and, presumably,
            transportation by monocyte-lineage cells. In any event, the view that
            Alhydrogel® neurotoxicity obeys “the dose makes the poison” rule of classical chemical toxicity appears overly simplistic.”

          • JGC

            That’s the study that argues that we should increase the concentration of aluminum adjuvants present in vaccine formulations to minimize the likelihood of any toxicity associated with exposure.
            Is that your feeling as well?

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            If that’s the only conclusion you draw, then you are clearly a paid shill. Have a nice day.

          • JGC

            Your evidence that I’m paid to post on the subject of vaccines or on any other subject, in this forum or in any other forum, would be what exactly?
            You do have some, I trust, if you’re willing to make such a statement.

          • Brian

            Is everyone who proves you wrong a “paid shill”?

            How do I become one? It sounds like easy money.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            You have to perfect the art of ad hominem and strawman like JGC. Keep at it! Maybe one day, you’ll land that dream job and get to finally move out of your mom’s basement.

          • Skepticalofskeptics
          • Brian

            Irony?

            The “paid shill” card is a favorite among the trolls.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing
          • Skepticalofskeptics
          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Acute vs chronic exposure. Why do you think intravenous tube feeding done … what…three times a day has anything to do with IM/SC injections given a few times a month?

            This is like complaining about the parts per billion in flu shot vs water – kind of irrelevant unless you drink flu shots…every single day….by the gallon.

            Also premature babies do not get Gardasil – that’s done at 11ish schedule-wise.

          • Ben

            Why do you think intravenous tube feeding done …

            Tube feeding. Are you talking about eating tubesteak?

            …three times a day….

            That’s too much. Really.

            …every single day….by the gallon.

            My god!

          • shay simmons

            You still don’t have any.

          • akell47a

            But we do know, from over 70 scientific studies, that there is a correlation between vaccination in general and autism. Even the CDC study found this, it’s just that they falsified it to protect the pharmaceutical industry’s profits.

          • JGC

            Just as we know there’s a correlation between global warming and the decline in number of the world’s pirates over time, or between the incidence of ASD’s and scales of organic produce. The increase in ASD diagnoses of will correlate with anything</b< that also increased in incidence over the same period of time–use of the internet, sales of mobile cell phones, etc., regardless of whether or not there exists a causal association between the two correlates.
            Correlation of itself is insufficient to demosntrate causation.

          • AutismDadd

            And a correlation between vaccines and lying shills.

          • JGC

            Citations needed.

          • AutismDadd

            skepticalraptor

          • 655321

            LOL!!!

          • akell47a

            No, only what they are correlated with. I do realize that correlation does not prove causation. For example, no one has ever been able to prove that heavy cigarette smoking causes lung cancer. We know there is a high correlation, but it does not prove causation, and no one can prove that any one case of lung cancer resulted from any particular smoking habit. Still, when the effects are absent wherever the potential cause is absent, and the potential cause is a matter of human choice, it is only prudent to take actions consistent with the findings, no?

          • 655321

            There is a correlation between the number of beers I drink and how many times my gout flares, there’s a correlation between the amount of words in a JGrahm post and the meaningless of his post…so what?

          • AutismDadd

            Now that’s what I call science.

          • AutismDadd

            A Duh Moment brought to you by JGC

          • AutismDadd

            CDC has sworn to protect the vaccine program no matter what. The carnage isn’t something they acknowledge or care about because the HERD is so large, a few casualties don’t matter. Like all Pharma product, they TRUMPET THE BENEFITS and whisper the adverse effects.

          • 655321

            Many people have staked their careers and reputations on the vaccine program. Taking the earrings off this pig will not be easy.

          • AutismDadd

            Its not a fair fight. Major problem is medical consensus and best practice. Something has to replace the faulty, fraudulent products, because they will not stop using them otherwise.

          • 655321

            It will never be a fair fight. I’ve been convinced for years there is a much darker angle to the vaccine agenda, greed doesn’t explain everything.

          • AutismDadd

            Agreed. Its management/ control, of the herd

          • Cardinal Fang

            As Rick Stevenson on this thread has already asked: Do you have links to those 70 studies? Like Rick I’ve not been able to find them, no matter what the anti-vaxx websites claim.

            So, links. To as many of them as you can find, if you please.

            If you can’t find links, please provide: Author name, Journal Name, Paper title, edition and page numbers (i.e. proper scientific citation) so that we can read them for ourselves and see whether your claim holds water.

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            If there was fraud at the CDC, I think it is more accurate to say they did what they did to “protect the vaccination program”. I can understand how somebody could rationalize hiding evidence that they felt, “threatened the greater good”. Of course pharm companies also would benefit. Either way, this is why we need an independent group fire-walled from industry doing the safety testing.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle
          • Mike Stevens

            neurexin-1
            😉

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            Yep, that, cia.

            Will correct in morning. Too late now. 😉

          • Tara Guildner

            It is sad you don’t believe a first hand account but you will believe an edited story. No one can convince you of anything because of the heavy indoctrination you have already undergone

          • Jonathan Graham

            First hand account of what?

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ Derp Turtle

            As soon as someone shows me a first-hand account where causation is established, I’ll believe them. The fact that it hasn’t happened yet is outside of my concern.

          • ibid.

            Ya think, Tara? Or maybe it’s because Parker has a bit of a reputation <a href="https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/the-weird-and-confusing-world-of-ciaparker/"as a confabulist.

            Which is more likely: The fairy tale she cribbed from someone else’s book, or that her and her kid are both autistic because they both have a NRXN1 gene deletion? Put that masseuse training to work and give us your expert opinion.

            Autism and schizophrenia don’t just run in Parker’s family; it’s everyone in Parker’s family. Another first hand account your pal shared.

          • Rick Stevenson

            Anecdotal evidence is invariably useless.

          • akell47a

            True. However, over 70 scientific studies, most peer-reviewed, have demonstrated a correlation between vaccination and autism. Moreover, the CDC research which also found a
            link, was subsequently falsified illegally, and the physician closely
            involved in that very research later went public and whistleblew.
            Moreover, in unvaccinated populations of children, such as Amish
            children, autism is practically non-existent. There are a few cases, but
            those are all children who were vaccinated contrary to Amish standard
            practice. This is why friends don’t let friends vaccinate their
            children.

          • Rick Stevenson

            Do you have links to those studies? Because I’ve never seen one. Not ever. I see people say they exist, I’ve seen people link to articles claiming they exist, but I’ve yet to have a single one actually provided to me. So, links. To as many of them as you can find, if you please.

          • ILoveJellybeans

            Autism, practically non existent in unvaccinated Amish kids?
            .
            Oh, I wonder why.
            .
            Is it because Amish children who are vaccinated have parents who use modern medicine? Amish children who are diagnosed autistic also have parents who use modern medicine. What a coincidence.
            .
            For every Amish kid who has been diagnosed autistic, because their families take them to the doctor, there are most likely plenty others who are undiagnosed and struggling with things, but aren’t getting any help or understanding.
            .
            Also, autism appears to have a genetic link. It is likely that Amish people might have fewer autistic people in general, because whichever genetics are responsible, are not as prevalent in their community. The Amish are a fairly closed society, and this has caused a shallower gene pool. There are some disorders which are rare to the general population, but are very prevalent amongst the Amish, because of this.
            .
            .
            Also, youre talking about the CDC whistleblower from Vaxxed, right? Well, about him, as he never actually appeared in it. All that is in Vaxxed is some edited conversations with him, secretly recorded by someone who was trying to sue because he believed vaccines caused his son’s autism (he lost, they didn’t, his son showed signs long before). Also, the group of African American boys in the study, were actually part of a much bigger study, but the data was manipulated around so much to find a link….there was less than ten boys in that group. Even less than Wakefield’s falsified study. They even had to shave a few months off the age group to make it fit, as there was so few subjects.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            An anecdote, especially from someone who says encephalitis = autism, is not reliable.

          • akell47a

            It is correct that anecdotes are not a scientific basis for anything. However, over 70 scientific studies, most peer-reviewed, have found a correlation between vaccination and autism. Moreover, the CDC research which also found a link, was subsequently falsified illegally, and the physician closely involved in that very research later went public and whistleblew. Moreover, in unvaccinated populations of children, such as Amish children, autism is practically non-existent. There are a few cases, but those are all children who were vaccinated contrary to Amish standard practice. This is why friends don’t let friends vaccinate their children.

          • Rob

            Correlation is not causal. There have been no studies that link autism to vaccines. Not by CDC, AAP or any other credible health institution. The original argument relates go thimerosal found in the MMR vaccine. The study was conduxted on a very small number of children. This argument was later debunked and the author was stripped of their credentials. Studies aside, I just find it completely unbelievable that such an enormous number of medical practitioners would be in on this big conspiracy to hurt people. That’s fine of one person says they disagree with the evidence but that can’t possibly be used as a sole representation of the “truth.”

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Correlation is not causation.

          • Jim Martin

            Oh hai, @gingertaylor:disqus.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a7718bc0ba345b09f1173cd34f6448c6d3d0638dbc466d629e625878c67e176b.jpg

            PROTIP: If you’re gonna rehash your old comments, at least change SOME of the words.

          • 655321

            Says the fake/anonymous profile. Well done shill.

          • Jim Martin

            Says the anonymous clown with 3, wait 4 documented sockpuppets

            This article might interest you. You’re welcome.
            https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder

          • 655321

            Projection is a useful tool Joey.

          • RelativeChaos00
          • AutismDadd

            Autoimmune Encephalitis. Look it up

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Genetics plays a part in autism. Not any kind of encephalitis.

          • AutismDadd

            What “part” Explain FULLY, and link to a source that proves it 100%

          • Valerie Finnigan
          • AutismDadd

            Hilarious

          • Skepticalofskeptics

            encephalitis can lead to brain damage.
            Perhaps you have never heard of Hannah Poling.
            http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.2652&rep=rep1&type=pdf

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Encephalitis can lead to brain damage. It still does not cause autism, which is caused by genetic factors.

          • AutismDadd

            Plus One other Person Is Shilling is a nutter.

          • akell47a

            Silly propaganda memes. Anti-scientific.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Evidence?

          • akell47a

            Yes, that’s it. That’s what’s lacking in the memes. Evidence.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            And yet the sources are right. there.

          • AutismDadd

            one other person is shilling

          • AutismDadd

            Made up trash

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Again, evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            The flies

          • Brooke Dunne
          • 655321

            You admit you lose when you resort to memes. Good one fake profile/pic.

          • Valerie Finnigan
          • ciaparker2
          • Valerie Finnigan

            Encephalitis doesn’t cause autism.

          • akell47a

            Is anyone claiming that? Vaccines cause autism, and they cause encephalitis. That doesn’t mean that encephalitis causes autism. /facepalm

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Vaccines do not cause encephalitis or autism.

          • AutismDadd

            Have you read about autoimmune encephalitis?

          • AutismDadd

            I guess you don’t research much.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            I research plenty. Latest research shows genetics factoring into autism more than anything else.

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong. Its supposition. No definite proof exists. It also makes sure it doesn’t figure out why there is so much gene alteration going on. It isn’t inherited in the majority, but they imply its all the same phenomenon.

          • 655321

            Really.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Furthermore, don’t treat me like an idiot who’s unaware of this phenomenon called confirmation bias. You cite sources showing it.

          • Valerie Finnigan

            Finally, don’t expect me to accept as reliable a source who attributes closed head injuries to vaccinations rather than violent shaking.

          • akell47a

            That has been the experience of many. Friends don’t let friends vaccinate their children…

        • vforba

          Actually yes, in most hospitals they do here in the US. There are also parents who have been threatened with CPS if they don’t give their child the Hep B shot. It also relies highly on where you live. Some hospitals are more staunch about it than others.

        • akell47a

          It is common for vaccines to be forced on newborns even when parents have refused them. Often a nurse will wait until a parent takes a potty break or steps out to the coffee machine, then seize the newborn and take them away to a room where the vaccines are given illegally. A standard practice.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Do you have any evidence of this at all?

      • ciaparker2

        Boy, you got THAT right! My daughter had an encephalitic reaction to the hep-B at birth, given without permission, and was later diagnosed with autism. Only babies born to mothers positive for surface-antigen hep-B should get this vaccine, which has disabled or even killed tens of thousands of children.

        • Brooke Dunne
        • JGC

          Your evidence that the Hepatitis B vaccine has disabled or killed tens of thousands of children would be what exactly, cia?

          Oh, that’s right! You don’t actually have any.

          • Brooke Dunne

            Good point. Here’s the other thing:

            What exactly did Parker do when her daughter supposedly had this “encephalitic reaction.” Did she take her to the ER? Take her to the pediatrician?

            Nope. She did nothing. That says a lot.

          • Aluminati

            Burn in hell asshole.

          • ciaparker2

            I’ll drink to that!

          • sabelmouse

            i’m sure that if there is one the shillies will.

          • ciaparker2

            So read the transcripts from the congressional safety hearing in May 1999 for the hep-B vaccine. As a result of which Merck promised to take the mercury out of Recombivax, its version of the hep-B vaccine, but continued to sell existing mercury-containing stock until the expiration date several years later. So along the way, they sold it to the hospital which gave it to my newborn without permission and against my express orders in May 2000. And she reacted both with symptoms of mercury toxicity and vaccine encephalitis, and was later diagnosed with autism. Read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism. Her newborn son reacted the same way as my daughter did to the vaccine, also given without her knowledge or permission. She was invited to testify at the safety hearing in 1999, as her testimony was so compelling. She provides reams of statistics, studies, and cases which show how devastating the vaccine has been to our children. It was introduced in the US for all newborns, permission be damned, in 1991, just at the beginning of the autism epidemic.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Read Judy Converse’s When Your Doctor is Wrong: The Hepatitis-B Vaccine and Autism.”

            Why would anyone choose to read a book written by a layperson than read one written by one of the medical experts, or look at the vast published evidence base?

          • ciaparker2

            The answer is obvious, and I hope anyone with any interest in the subject will read the well-documented account of a mother whose newborn infant (like mine) had a severe and disabling reaction to the hep-B vaccine, and whose knowledge and experience were considered convincing and credible enough for her to be invited to give testimony at the congressional safety hearing on the hep-B vaccine in May 1999. Or sure, just go back to sleep confident in the belief that vaccine safety is currently in the hands of the most competent and trustworthy authorities imaginable. Not.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Can you explain the UK?

          • FallsAngel

            I thought you didn’t know what brand of vaccine your daughter got. So you’ve been lying all this time?

          • shay simmons

            Changing your story (again), parker?

          • shay simmons

            There never was any mercury in Recombivax; or any other vaccine.

            Elements are not compounds, parker. Lord knows you’ve had this pointed out to you often enough.

          • ciaparker2

            According to the agency’s calculations, an infant six months old who got all vaccine doses on schedule would receive 75 micrograms of mercury from three doses of DTaP, 75 micrograms from three doses of Hib, and 37.5 micrograms
            from three doses of hepatitis B vaccine – a total of 187.5 micrograms of mercury.

            http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/media/2.1.pdf

          • shay simmons

            Sorry, parker. Not only does Hg =/= C9H9HgNaO2S, but your daughter didn’t have encephalitis. You never took her to the doctor ; which is about the only part of your story that doesn’t keep changing.

          • FallsAngel

            That and the days of the week from 17 years ago, maybe 18 now.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia, you have no evidence the vaccine given to your daughter had thimerosal in it. You said you did not obtain records from the hospital which would specify the vaccine batch number. Easy to check.
            The chances there was still TCV in use in 2000 is slim. Most suppliers had switched to the thimerosal free versions by then.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Show us one vaccine with elemental mercury.

          • JGC

            The transcript itself isn’t evidence–perhaps you could instead identify the peer reviewed studies the participants in the safety hearing cited as evidence that the Hep B vaccine has disabled or killed tens of thousands of children?

          • ciaparker2

            Of course it’s evidence. I guess you saw that the EU Court just said that common sense observations of cause and effect were admissible as valid evidence in lawsuits for vaccine damage? In that case, a healthy man got the hep-B shot and almost immediately was diagnosed with MS. Just as thousands more have been. In France, the vaccine was required for schoolchildren until so many got MS so soon after getting the vaccine that they sued the government for its dangerous mandate. The government took it off the required list. It’s still on the “required” list in the US unless you get a religious exemption, as you can still do in 47 of the 50 states. Those in California, West Virginia, or Mississippi have to decide whether they’d rather keep a child in school or take a good chance of permanently damaging him with the required vaccines.

          • JGC

            “I guess you saw that the EU Court just said that common sense observations of cause and effect were admissible as valid evidence in lawsuits for vaccine damage”

            And if you were suing for damages in an EU court you might have a point, but as far as our discussion goes you’re confusing witness statements for scientific evidence.

            “In that case, a healthy man got the hep-B shot and almost immediately was diagnosed with MS.”

            The fact that the diagnosis followed closely upon vaccination does not argue the vaccine caused his MS (google the classic logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc to see why).

            “Those in California, West Virginia, or Mississippi have to decide whether they’d rather keep a child in school or take a good chance of permanently damaging him with the required vaccines.”
            If there were actual evidence demonstrating vaccination conferred a significant risk of suffering permanent damage they might face such a choice. As things stand however…

          • ciaparker2

            Yeah, I know, and if a man drops a pot of boiling water on his foot and sustains severe burns, there is, in fact, no proof that it was the boiling water which inflicted the burns. If there’s someone with an interest in denying that boiling water burns, then he will certainly be successful in hiring as many minions as he likes to swear up and down that the water was not, in fact, hot enough to do any damage.

            I know you’re just an empty shadow, but those interested in the topic should read Vaccine Epidemic, The Vaccine Guide, Make an Informed Vaccine Decision, and Age of Autism. If they get them from Amazon, they will be offered many more excellent books on vaccine damage. Anyone who stops their search for knowledge upon a paid-for pharma shill’s assuring them that no vaccine ever harmed anyone, cannot complain at the ensuing tragedy.

          • Proponent

            Theatre of the Absurd presents.. ciaparker2 in “Shilling for Books”.

          • ciaparker2

            Books are far superior to comments on the Internet. They have a lot more information than anything we can fit into a comment on the Internet, and they are not beset by hostile attacks by pharma minions like —.

          • JGC

            Actually, no: there’s abundant proof that boiling water is capable of producing burns.
            Those that are interested in the topic should get their information from the CDC, the WHO, peer-reviewed epidemiologic and clinical studies, etc., rather than opinion pieces and crank web sites. That’s where you’ll find actual evidence, rather than anecdotal accounts and anti-vax myths (and downright lies).

          • ciaparker2

            Those interested in the topic should bear in mind the very strong financial and professional incentives that these and nearly every medical or pharmaceutical operative have to deny vaccine damage. Both to keep the gravy train on the rails for as long as possible and to put off the day of reckoning when the severe damage they have inflicted to millions becomes obvious to all.

          • JGC

            What financial incentive does a physicians have to deny vaccine damage?

            What financial incentive does the WHO have to deny vaccine damage?

            What financial incentive does the FDA have to deny vaccine damage?

            What financial incentive does the CDC have to deny vaccine damage?

            What financial incentive does the IOM have to deny vaccine damage?

            Spell those out for us please.

            Insurance companies surely don’t–it isn’t in their financial interests to underwrite the costs of treatments that either do not work or cause more harm than they prevent. Pharmaceutical companies and hospitals certainly don’t–there’s a lot more money to be made treating infectious diseases than there is in preventing them.

            “…when the severe damage they have inflicted to millions becomes obvious to all”
            What damage, exactly, and what evidence demonstrates it occurs as a result of routine childhood vaccination? Be specific. If it really is obvious you should have not trouble establishing that fact.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            *yoink*

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Suppose that just as many people had dropped boiling water on their feet without any damage.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing

            Or you can homeschool.

          • Mike Stevens

            Cia used to say she could prove Hep B vaccine “seriously damaged or killed hundreds of thousands of children”.
            But when asked to demonstrate that it had done so in just 100 children, no proof was forthcoming.

          • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing
        • https://autisticagainstantivaxxers.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/submissions/ One Other Person Is Typing
      • ciaparker2

        I hope you’ll check out the current discussion of your comment.

    • vforba

      You assume it means that the author did all the work what proof do you have it wasn’t just a person named to the article as the author when there could have been several?

      • Kevin Williams

        I’m not assuming anything. The convention for scholarly publications is that the first author named is the lead author–the researcher who did most of the work; and the last author named is the corresponding author–the person who directed the research study. All the rest of the listed authors had some role in the research, but not the level of responsibility of the lead or corresponding authors.

        Of the 8 articles listed in PubMed, Obukhanych is listed as the lead author on only one, and is not listed as the corresponding author on any. And, as I pointed out previously, none of these articles is a direct study of any vaccine, vaccine safety, or vaccine effecicacy.

        Being published only 8 times in 15 years–and not once in the last 5 years–makes for a rather thin resume as a researcher. And none of her publications have anything at all to do with her new area of “expertise.”

    • ciaparker2

      Measles, mumps, and rubella are all mild or relatively mild diseases in healthy children, and they confer incalculable long-term benefits to the child’s developing immune system. They are all GOOD diseases for healthy children to get. Flu is also good for healthy children to get, and the vaccine was contraindicated for healthy children until 2004, as the risks of the vaccine exceeded the risks of the disease. Pertussis is no longer a dangerous disease to any but the youngest newborns. The vaccine does nothing to protect young babies, whose immune system is very undeveloped. It does, however, more than double their incidence of sometimes fatal asthma in these children by the age of seven, compared to those who get the very dangerous and ineffective pertussis vaccine a few months later than the standard two months old. Better to shelter young infants at home for their protection and treat them with high-dose IV vitamin C if they get pertussis despite precautions. The vaccine only works to protect half of toddlers and only a quarter of school-aged children. My thrice-vaxxed baby got pertussis at eight months old and gave it to me, as is very common these days. It was very unpleasant and frightening to cough ten coughs per breath, she for over a month and I for over two months, but it wasn’t dangerous and we both made a complete recovery. And then when she got the DTaP booster at 18 months old, it erased her only two words and she was diagnosed with autism two months later. The pertussis vaccine is as dangerous now as it ever was, often causing asthma, allergies, seizures disorders, SIDS, and autism. I don’t recommend that anyone get it at any age, better just to go through the disease, and, if you have never gotten the pertussis vaccine, you’ll recover with permanent immunity. If you’ve ever gotten the vax, you probably won’t, because of original antigenic sin.

      Why is the honest immunologist more believable than the thousands feeding at the pharma trough? Gee, I’ll have to think about that one.

    • Lucinda Sutherland

      She wrote the letter, she did NOT post it here. Someone else did that and THEY added the Harvard claims. It is nonsense for you to discount her research because of hype added after the fact.

      • Kevin Williams

        Two totally different issues. Clearly the title of the article is intended to mislead you into thinking that her letter is some sort of official statement from Harvard. It is not.

        I am not discounting her research at all. My point is that her CV of published research is very thin for her to be considered an expert in her field: only one study with her as the lead author, and none with her as the corresponding author. She’s clearly not doing any ground-breaking work of her own. And none of the studies in PubMed are relevant to the topic of her letter. Consequently, while not discounting her research, I am discounting her qualifications as an authority in this area. And if you read my original post, I pointed out specific problems with the letter itself.

    • David Rice

      Dude! It’s a fake story published on a fake web site. No one is stupid enough to believe this shit in the first place.

      • Kevin Williams

        Read the comments. There are a lot of people who believe this.

  • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022

    Title of this article should be:

    Unemployed: Unvaccinated Children Pose Zero Risk

    • Renè

      You’re afraid of unvaccinated people but don’t think vaccines will protect you?

      That’s quite the endorsement.

  • JGC

    Funny. A search for Obukhanych Tin PubMed returns 8 indexed publications, none of which offer any evidence that “unvaccinated children pose zero risk”.
    I note also she’s offered no real evidence here that is the case, and in fact she’s made at least one claim here that is demonstrably false (that Hepatitis B does not spread in community settings among children who are unlikely to engage in high-risk behaviors such as needle sharing or sex).

    • Ron Roy

      24 people all in one big office saying to each other ” hey vote for this one.”

      • shay simmons

        What is it with antivaxxers and their upvote envy?

        • Mike Stevens

          They seem to think upvotes confer a veneer of respectability to their witterings. Unfortunately there are only about 3 or 4 of them, and to get more upvotes is difficult, as they have to keep switching to a different sockie account to upvote someone again, which I guess must be constraining.

          • AutismDadd

            5 sock puppets liked that comment Brian, Acleron, Mike

      • Valerie Finnigan

        Right, because it’s always some conspiracy….

        • Ron Roy

          Prove that it isn’t.

    • Valerie Finnigan

      I think she forgot about the hygiene habits of kids who aren’t potty trained.

    • akell47a

      I think PubMed publishes articles. This text is an open letter. Perhaps this is why it would not be expected to appear on PubMed.

      • JGC

        PubMed also indexes letters which are published in peer-reviewed journals.

        • akell47a

          Perhaps this letter had not been published in a peer-reviewed journal. Let’s use our brains…

          • JGC

            Which would mean that it hasn’t undergone peer review and as evidence in support of any claim regarding vaccine safety as persuasive as a letter stating “Cats are better than dogs”.

          • akell47a

            So you are saying that this open letter is no more authoritative than, say, the little brochures the CDC puts out, recommending that children be vaccinated?

          • JGC

            I’m making no such comparison. I’m instead noting that Dr. King’s open letter is nothing more than a statement of opinion, which he has not troubled himself to provide any supporting evidence for.

          • KingofCastletillQueengetshome.

            No, this letter has incredibly more unbiased science behind it than anything put out by the bought & paid for by the drug companies CDC.

          • shay simmons

            Cats ARE better than dogs.

          • JGC

            Dogs have owners, cats have staff.

          • AutismDadd

            Both have slaves who clean up after them

          • JGC

            Family, not slaves

          • AutismDadd

            Slaves. Its pathetic

          • http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/ Reality022
          • Proponent
          • 655321

            They teach you that when you worked at the DOD?

          • KingofCastletillQueengetshome.